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Someone's Printing up Souls

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  • #46
    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    And it seems like one of the grandparents is an active promoter of reincarnation, so there's already the power of suggestion from at least one significant person in the child's and parent's environment.
    That cultural influence alone explains the "Heaven is Real" and satanic possession phenomena. We live in a very dualistic culture that wants to believe a boy visited Heaven and scary people are possessed.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by whag View Post
      Can you reject out of hand the possibility that Satan possesses children or plants fake memories in their heads?
      Satan in particular would be highly unlikely. He's got minions for that.
      Because Adam transfered land rights to Satan, every human being is under his dominion. I thought that was the traditional belief regarding why demons have free access to human beings and their minds.

      In the case of the children with uncanny memories of past identity, they weren't worshipping Satan. These are much harder cases than the lawyer.
      Of course they weren't worshipping Satan. The church has long held that worshiping false gods or messing around with the occult leaves one open to demonic influence. Satan and his demons do not operate by showing themselves for what they are; they use deception to gain influence.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
        I don't understand this question when you've already provided one. Making things up to get attention is viable.
        Yes, but it does not explain every case.
        So is some sort of hypnotism stuff similar to what Jed keeps referencing.
        Making things up would not explain that.
        Demonic possession is as much a non-starter as reincarnation is, even within a Christian perspective where demons exist and influence. Demons are a nice ad hoc explanation with no real substance behind the claim except 'could be'.
        Your opinion is duly noted. I so appreciate skeptics telling me what I can viably believe within my worldview. The ability of Christians to exorcise demons was so far (and so obviously) beyond that of pagans that it was used as an apologetic for Christianity in the early centuries of the church.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          Of course they weren't worshipping Satan. The church has long held that worshiping false gods or messing around with the occult leaves one open to demonic influence. Satan and his demons do not operate by showing themselves for what they are; they use deception to gain influence.
          The kids weren't messing around with the occult. In any case, do demons have the right to plant reincarnation thoughts in their heads?

          Originally posted by One Bad Pig
          Not sure why that's confusing. That concept is summarized here by Adrift:

          "God gave dominion over the earth to mankind, but Adam gave up this dominion through disobedience. The one who deceived Adam inherited his dominion, and became (as we find in the New Testament) 'the ruler of this world', 'the prince of the power of the air', and "the god of this age.'"

          How is that much different than what I originally said? Land rights is a metaphor for the earth. Satan has dominion over the earth and can do whatever he wants with its inhabitants.

          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          The ability of Christians to exorcise demons was so far (and so obviously) beyond that of pagans that it was used as an apologetic for Christianity in the early centuries of the church.
          I'm not aware of demonic possession being so prevalent during the establishment of the early church. Why would the problem dissipate after the first few centuries? The level of possession should increase commensurate with the increase in the worship of false gods, which Christians believe is at an all-time high today.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by whag View Post
            The kids weren't messing around with the occult. In any case, do demons have the right to plant reincarnation thoughts in their heads?
            I don't think demons are much concerned with rights.
            Not sure why that's confusing. That concept is summarized here by Adrift:

            "God gave dominion over the earth to mankind, but Adam gave up this dominion through disobedience. The one who deceived Adam inherited his dominion, and became (as we find in the New Testament) 'the ruler of this world', 'the prince of the power of the air', and "the god of this age.'"

            How is that much different than what I originally said? Land rights is a metaphor for the earth. Satan has dominion over the earth and can do whatever he wants with its inhabitants.
            It's an odd way to put it, is all. Satan can do what he wants, but within limits. See, e.g., the book of Job.
            I'm not aware of demonic possession being so prevalent during the establishment of the early church.
            Try reading relevant material on the topic.
            Why would the problem dissipate after the first few centuries? The level of possession should increase commensurate with the increase in the worship of false gods, which Christians believe is at an all-time high today.
            After the civilized world was more or less Christianized, there were fewer receptacles available for possession there. The problem is still lessened today because in Christian countries, the alternative tends to be agnosticism/atheism, which is a lack of belief in the supernatural. Since that eliminates belief in God, there's no real need for demons to mess around with that group. Anyone who is interesting in exploring the supernatural is still at risk.
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              Yes, but it does not explain every case.

              Making things up would not explain that.
              Yes, there is obviously more than one explanation, but none of them get to 'demons'. There's no requirement that there be a single explanation. Not sure why you're speaking as if that's not the case.


              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              Your opinion is duly noted. I so appreciate skeptics telling me what I can viably believe within my worldview. The ability of Christians to exorcise demons was so far (and so obviously) beyond that of pagans that it was used as an apologetic for Christianity in the early centuries of the church.
              I didn't say 'demons' wasn't viable, only ad hoc. As in they make a useful scapegoat for general weirdness or bad behavior when no other answer is readily apparent. Sure, demons could be doing it. We have zero reason to suggest they are, though (which holds for the vast majority of cases when they're invoked).
              I'm not here anymore.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                I didn't say 'demons' wasn't viable, only ad hoc. As in they make a useful scapegoat for general weirdness or bad behavior when no other answer is readily apparent. Sure, demons could be doing it. We have zero reason to suggest they are, though (which holds for the vast majority of cases when they're invoked).
                The problem with this assertion is that exorcism is a 2,000-year-old practice. One would think that, if results were rarely apparent, the practice would have died out long ago; after all, an exorcist expects immediate results. Your 'vast majority' is pure speculation based on your a priori beliefs. That is not to say that there are not false attributions to demonic activity, but that hardly rules out the possibility that in some cases the attribution is correct.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  [ATTACH=CONFIG]18050[/ATTACH]
                  Nice art!
                  Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Wow, zombie thread.
                    Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
                      Wow, zombie thread.
                      Yeah, got spam bumped. Noticed I never got around to replying to the last post.
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment

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