Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

What is a 'Christ'?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
    But you do realise that Messiah meaning Anointed usually refers to a person initiated into God’s service so it would be perfectly reasonable to conclude that Jesus was not endowed with supernatural powers before that point.

    Why did Jesus, the Sinless One, submit himself to John’s baptism? He did so because he was not sinless.
    Originally posted by Cow Poke
    Nope. He did so because He chose to.
    Is that really the best apologetic to explain Jesus joining another mans cult?

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Sea of red View Post
      Is that really the best apologetic to explain Jesus joining another mans cult?
      I really didn't think you were that dumb.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        I really didn't think you were that dumb.
        Yeah, I don't swallow your apologetics so I must be dumb.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Sea of red View Post
          Yeah, I don't swallow your apologetics so I must be dumb.
          No, you're dumb for thinking John the Baptist had a "cult", when his primary focus was preparing the way for the Christ. Dumb dumb dumb .
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            No, you're dumb for thinking John the Baptist had a "cult", when his primary focus was preparing the way for the Christ. Dumb dumb dumb .
            It's why John was killed you dolt.

            Josephus: Antiquities of the Jews
            2. Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod’s army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness. Now when [many] others came in crowds about him, for they were very greatly moved [or pleased] by hearing his words, Herod, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion, (for they seemed ready to do any thing he should advise,) thought it best, by putting him to death, to prevent any mischief he might cause, and not bring himself into difficulties, by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it would be too late. Accordingly he was sent a prisoner, out of Herod’s suspicious temper, to Macherus, the castle I before mentioned, and was there put to death. Now the Jews had an opinion that the destruction of this army was sent as a punishment upon Herod, and a mark of God’s displeasure to him.
            He was a rabble rouser and it got him killed. I'm sorry that the history that is recorded here portrays a picture you don't like.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Sea of red View Post
              It's why John was killed you dolt.
              I think I'll leave you to your profound ignorance.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Sea of red View Post
                It's why John was killed you dolt.

                Josephus: Antiquities of the Jews

                He was a rabble rouser and it got him killed. I'm sorry that the history that is recorded here portrays a picture you don't like.
                Since when does "had great influence over people" equal "rabble rouser"? By that definition, Barack Obama is a 'rabble rouser.' The Dalai Lama is a 'rabble rouser.' Martin Luther King, Jr. was a 'rabble rouser.' You might want to re-think this.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  Since when does "had great influence over people" equal "rabble rouser"?
                  Romans were good about managing the cultural balance and keeping the peace. When John the Baptist began preaching the Messiah was near and that everyone must get baptized, the Romans obviously got concerned the these Jewish cults were getting out of control, and so they nipped it in the bud.

                  By that definition, Barack Obama is a 'rabble rouser.'
                  Ever seen one of his rallies? LoL!

                  And thank you OBP for actually conversing with me.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Sea of red View Post
                    Romans were good about managing the cultural balance and keeping the peace. When John the Baptist began preaching the Messiah was near and that everyone must get baptized, the Romans obviously got concerned the these Jewish cults were getting out of control, and so they nipped it in the bud.
                    Not especially. Herod was a Roman client king, but from the extant records it wasn't exactly Roman concerns that got John imprisoned or killed. And AFAICT, John was preaching on repentance, not baptism per se, and his message wasn't all that controversial in their eyes (they're going to complain about soldiers being admonished to be content with their pay?).
                    Ever seen one of his rallies? LoL!
                    I try to avoid seeing political rallies.
                    And thank you OBP for actually conversing with me.
                    No problem.
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                      He did so because he was not sinless.
                      Or he did so in order to "fulfill all righteousness".

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        Not especially. Herod was a Roman client king, but from the extant records it wasn't exactly Roman concerns that got John imprisoned or killed. And AFAICT, John was preaching on repentance, not baptism per se, and his message wasn't all that controversial in their eyes (they're going to complain about soldiers being admonished to be content with their pay?).
                        Sure, but it was obviously a factor in Herods decision to execute John. Keeping the peace and preventing unrest were things the Romans put above all else - unless special circumstances came into play.

                        I try to avoid seeing political rallies.
                        My favorite of all time was old Little Kim's funeral in North Korea. Those people are so crazy it's actually funny.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Sea of red View Post
                          Sure, but it was obviously a factor in Herods decision to execute John. Keeping the peace and preventing unrest were things the Romans put above all else - unless special circumstances came into play.
                          How so? As far as I can tell from the gospel accounts, John's execution was due to a woman scorned taking advantage of a drunken offer. Having experienced both vengeful women and drunk people, the accounts appear to be rather true to life on this point.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                            How so? As far as I can tell from the gospel accounts, John's execution was due to a woman scorned taking advantage of a drunken offer. Having experienced both vengeful women and drunk people, the accounts appear to be rather true to life on this point.
                            I'm willing to accept that as part of the element as nothing sticks out as mythical or embellished.

                            How many vengeful women have you experienced?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                              sigpic
                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                                How so? As far as I can tell from the gospel accounts, John's execution was due to a woman scorned taking advantage of a drunken offer. Having experienced both vengeful women and drunk people, the accounts appear to be rather true to life on this point.
                                “[This brings us to another difficult subject: who could have written the original accounts upon which so many of our Gospel episodes are based? Although puzzling scholars for generations, this question may not be as difficult to gain a measure of insight into as most may think. One must keep in mind the attitudes, the orientation or, if one prefers, the polemics, which are in fact quite straightforward. With rare exceptions the point of view is almost always anti-Semitic, pro-Gentile, anti-national and pro-Roman. While employing the warp and woof of Jewish Messianism, this is exploited basically to produce a proRoman, spiritualized, Hellenistic-style mystery religion. Here, one must understand that, while all the Gospels exhibit differences, the Synoptics are basically variations on a theme – with more or less material added. John, while differing markedly as to specific historical points and development, still comes from the same Hellenistic, anti-Semitic mindset – even more extreme. What we are speaking about here is the original core of materials and the mindset they evince, not the endless variations, addenda or accretions. The underlying mindset is on the whole consistent, while the variations are so complex and creative that even the modern techniques of form, redaction or text criticism have not succeeded in elucidating these in any generally acceptable manner – nor are they ever likely to do so to everyone’s satisfaction. However, the central question must be, who might have had an interest in the general thrust of the presentation of ‘Messianic’ events in Palestine which all more or less have in common – to be sure, acquiring accretions as the original core went through manifold transformations and additions – whose interests did the ideological thrust of this central core of material serve?

                                We have already given numerous examples of the orientation we have in mind, despite the variations, perhaps the most important aspect of which was to lighten and deflect the fundamental embarrassment over the Roman execution of Jesus as a subversive and anti-Roman agitator. This, anyhow, has to some extent come to be recognized by scholars. Out of it proceeds the positive portrayal, where possible (it almost always was), of Roman officials and Herodian puppets. Two of the most obvious of these were: 1) the patent fraudulence of portraying Pontius Pilate’s high regard for Jesus and ‘his (Pilate’s, that is) wife’ – naturally unnamed and in a dream no less – as recognizing ‘Jesus’ as ‘a Righteous Man’ (again, it is difficult to suppress a guffaw – this, as we have been seeing, the most revered concept in Judaism of the time and, in particular, among what we have been calling ‘Opposition groups’); and 2) the henpecked ‘Herod the Tetrarch’ (it was hard to whitewash him) hesitating to execute John the Baptist, but, rather, likewise recognizing him as a ‘Righteous Man’ (‘ a Zaddik’! – again, the by-now pro forma guffaw) while the majority of Jews could not – yet being forced to execute John because of a lascivious dance performed by his wife Herodias’ daughter (as few realize, in the Gospels anyhow – unnamed) at his (Herod the Tetrarch’s) birthday party (a celebration usually honoured by Romans, but hardly very many Jews – if any). Almost any fair-minded person would immediately recognize such portrayals as patent dissimulation – even worse, disinformation.]”

                                Eisenman, Robert (2012-10-11). James the Brother of Jesus: The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of Early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls (Kindle Locations 10876-10884). Watkins Publishing LTD. Kindle Edition.

                                Are you a fair-minded person?
                                “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                                “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                                “not all there” - you know who you are

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by whag, Yesterday, 03:01 PM
                                14 responses
                                42 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Started by whag, 03-17-2024, 04:55 PM
                                21 responses
                                129 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by whag, 03-14-2024, 06:04 PM
                                78 responses
                                411 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Started by whag, 03-13-2024, 12:06 PM
                                45 responses
                                303 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Working...
                                X