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What is a 'Christ'?

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  • What is a 'Christ'?

    So what exactly is a ‘Christ’?

    “As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.” - Matthew 3:16

    “[For Hippolytus, this ‘Christ’ or ‘the Perfect Man’ – according to Mandaean doctrine ‘the Demiurge standing above the cosmos’ – descended on numerous individuals. This is a quasi-Gnostic doctrine. For the latter, in the ‘aeon’ we have before us, the descent of this ‘Christ’ or ‘Perfect Man’ on ‘Jesus’ occurred in the form of a dove – the picture disseminated in the Gospels. Hippolytus ascribes the same ideology to ‘the Elchasaites’ who seem to be a later adumbration of such groups as well as to one ‘Cerinthus’, referred to by all these heresiologists, who was said to have taught ‘the Ebionites’. This doctrine of ‘the Perfect Man’ or ‘Standing One’ is also abroad among Shi‘ites in Islam even today, albeit in a slightly different nexus, which seems to have developed out of the persistence of many of these groups and the central notions they all seemed to share in Northern Iraq. In Epiphanius, some two centuries after Hippolytus, these ‘Naassenes’ are called ‘Nazareans’ or ‘Nazrenes’ – the ‘Nazoraeans’, who go into the élite Priest Class of Mandaeans. For him, they exist even before Christ – as do our so-called ‘Essenes’ at Qumran – and are coincident with other similar groups he calls Daily Bathers/ Hemerobaptists and ‘Sebuaeans’ (thus).]”

    Eisenman, Robert (2012-10-11). James the Brother of Jesus: The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of Early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls (Kindle Locations 11645-11654). Watkins Publishing LTD. Kindle Edition.

    And why is this heretical?.
    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
    “not all there” - you know who you are

  • #2
    It looks to me like Eisenman is ascribing to Hippolytus a view which he is reporting as being held by a heretical group. And he conveniently doesn't cite where he's exactly getting the information from, so it's hard to check.

    Eisenman, IIRC, is rather far out of the mainstream on DSS scholarship.

    "Christ" simply means "anointed one"; Jesus is the one anointed. The view given above thus ignores the meaning of the word 'Christ.' Does that help?
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      It looks to me like Eisenman is ascribing to Hippolytus a view which he is reporting as being held by a heretical group. And he conveniently doesn't cite where he's exactly getting the information from, so it's hard to check.

      Eisenman, IIRC, is rather far out of the mainstream on DSS scholarship.

      "Christ" simply means "anointed one"; Jesus is the one anointed. The view given above thus ignores the meaning of the word 'Christ.' Does that help?
      And the act of anointing Jesus is accomplished by God through baptism and the use of a dove?
      “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
      “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
      “not all there” - you know who you are

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
        And the act of anointing Jesus is accomplished by God through baptism and the use of a dove?
        More or less, yeah.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • #5
          Actually, a better question, Alex, is "Who is THE Christ"?
          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
            And the act of anointing Jesus is accomplished by God through baptism and the use of a dove?
            That's kinda like saying the act of establishing a POTUS is accomplished by having an inauguration. The baptism was a public recognition of who Christ was.
            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

            Comment


            • #7
              Biblically how many 'Christs' are there in the OT and prophesy?

              Does the OT specify different kinds of Christ?
              Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-24-2015, 12:09 PM.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                More or less, yeah.
                And the anointing is linked, of course, to the start of his ministry and his new ability to perform miracles.
                “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                “not all there” - you know who you are

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                  And the anointing is linked, of course, to the start of his ministry and his new ability to perform miracles.
                  The start of his ministry, yes. It did not confer on him any new abilities, according to orthodox belief.
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    That's kinda like saying the act of establishing a POTUS is accomplished by having an inauguration. The baptism was a public recognition of who Christ was.
                    It can be understood differently; that Jesus was transformed by the Holy Spirit having been an ordinary human being from birth. You have to discount the story of the virgin birth but that is not difficult.
                    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                    “not all there” - you know who you are

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                      So what exactly is a ‘Christ’?
                      The Christ is the ONLY unique Son of God...
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                        It can be understood differently;
                        Sure, anything can be understood differently.

                        that Jesus was transformed by the Holy Spirit having been an ordinary human being from birth.
                        Yeah, cause ordinary beings are produced everyday by a virgin.

                        You have to discount the story of the virgin birth but that is not difficult.
                        Then you might as well discount the sinless life of Christ, and that he was, indeed, the Messiah.
                        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                          And the anointing is linked, of course, to the start of his ministry
                          pretty much, yes

                          and his new ability to perform miracles.
                          meh... we don't know that.
                          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            meh... we don't know that.
                            But you do realise that Messiah meaning Anointed usually refers to a person initiated into God’s service so it would be perfectly reasonable to conclude that Jesus was not endowed with supernatural powers before that point.

                            Why did Jesus, the Sinless One, submit himself to John’s baptism? He did so because he was not sinless.
                            “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                            “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                            “not all there” - you know who you are

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                              But you do realise that Messiah meaning Anointed usually refers to a person
                              Christ was quite unusual on a whole number of points.

                              initiated into God’s service so it would be perfectly reasonable to conclude that Jesus was not endowed with supernatural powers before that point.
                              No, because He was with God from the beginning.

                              Why did Jesus, the Sinless One, submit himself to John’s baptism?
                              He was establishing baptism as a symbol of obedience.

                              He did so because he was not sinless.
                              Nope. He did so because He chose to.
                              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                              Comment

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