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Can Science and Christianity be compatible? LPoT vs SoR. Also open to others.

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  • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
    As for #2 I happen to be an apathetic YEC (which means I don't care either way, but I was brought up in a family where we believed in the YEC interpretation and have felt no need to reconsider my position)
    Did you attend a school, or were you home-schooled?

    I ask, because evolution should be covered in any basic biology course and the age of the Earth is covered in any basic earth science course. In fact, the evidence for evolution and an old-earth is widely available and well-known in our culture, especially on the Internet. One is bound to run into it. So claiming to be an "apathetic" YEC would be akin to claiming to be an "apathetic flat-earther" or an "apathetic AIDS": it wouldn't just result from apathy, but willfully ignoring/rejecting what's widespread in one's culture and school. And that's not apathy.
    "Instead, we argue, it is necessary to shift the debate from the subject under consideration, instead exposing to public scrutiny the tactics they [denialists] employ and identifying them publicly for what they are."

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
      You seem to say that you don't care at all about interpreting the Bible correctly.
      Well it's not important, although there's a certain interest in learning about the pre-scientific mindset. But if its verifiable facts you’re after than it’s science you turn to not the etiological myths of ancient scripture.

      Why should I bother with your posts?
      It depends upon whether or not you’re open to information from outside your biblically-based belief system.

      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      IMHO, those who say that teaching creationism constitutes child abuse greatly cheapen the meaning of child abuse.
      IMHO the deliberate act of inculcating innocent children with misinformation, before they are of an age whereby they can make critical assessment for themselves, constitutes child abuse. It's overt indoctrination
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Jichard View Post
        Did you attend a school, or were you home-schooled?

        I ask, because evolution should be covered in any basic biology course and the age of the Earth is covered in any basic earth science course. In fact, the evidence for evolution and an old-earth is widely available and well-known in our culture, especially on the Internet. One is bound to run into it. So claiming to be an "apathetic" YEC would be akin to claiming to be an "apathetic flat-earther" or an "apathetic AIDS": it wouldn't just result from apathy, but willfully ignoring/rejecting what's widespread in one's culture and school. And that's not apathy.
        Being apathetic about science doesn't make you cool and detached. It makes you boring. Apathy about epistemology certainly isn't something to be admired in theism.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post



          IMHO the deliberate act of inculcating innocent children with misinformation, before they are of an age whereby they can make critical assessment for themselves, constitutes child abuse. It's overt indoctrination
          First, those parents don't think that that they are deliberately inculcating innocent children with misinformation. They seriously and honestly believe that what they are saying is accurate and correct.

          Second, by your definition parents who tell their children that the tooth fairy left them money or that the Easter Bunny left eggs for them to find are guilty of child abuse.

          Are parents who teach their children various legends about their country or those that founded it guilty of child abuse? If someone here in the U.S. teaches them that George Washington really chopped down a cherry tree as a child and said "I cannot tell a lie" when his father asked about it a child abuser?

          Getting more serious, if their parents teach them that 9/11 and/or the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing was an "inside job" or that the moon landing was a hoax, should they be charged with child abuse?

          What about long discredited stories that still get a lot of play in some quarters such as that a tenth of all birth defects are the result of spousal abuse or that spousal abuse rates jump on Superbowl Sunday? Or how about claims that agricultural and biological scientists have conspired to fabricate the overwhelming amount of scientific evidence supporting the safety and benefit of genetically modified food crops, while simultaneously suppressing evidence suggesting the dangers of these crops? Is anyone that tells their kids these things committing child abuse?

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • Originally posted by whag View Post
            Being apathetic about science doesn't make you cool and detached. It makes you boring. Apathy about epistemology certainly isn't something to be admired in theism.
            What's the link between Christianity - evolution/science - epistemology that you're talking about? I'm not getting what you're driving at...
            ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

            Comment


            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              First, those parents don't think that that they are deliberately inculcating innocent children with misinformation. They seriously and honestly believe that what they are saying is accurate and correct.

              Second, by your definition parents who tell their children that the tooth fairy left them money or that the Easter Bunny left eggs for them to find are guilty of child abuse.
              Not even close. Telling misinformation about scientific epistemology has much more wide-reaching and damaging effects on children who need to thrive intellectually into adulthood. We see that being played out now in scientific ignorance about climate change, for instance.

              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              Are parents who teach their children various legends about their country or those that founded it guilty of child abuse? If someone here in the U.S. teaches them that George Washington really chopped down a cherry tree as a child and said "I cannot tell a lie" when his father asked about it a child abuser?
              That depends on how religiously that legend is repeated in the household. If the parents start a cult premised on Washington's cherry tree story, yes, it's child abuse.

              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              more serious, if their parents teach them that 9/11 and/or the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing was an "inside job" or that the moon landing was a hoax, should they be charged with child abuse?
              See above.

              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              What about long discredited stories that still get a lot of play in some quarters such as that a tenth of all birth defects are the result of spousal abuse or that spousal abuse rates jump on Superbowl Sunday? Or how about claims that agricultural and biological scientists have conspired to fabricate the overwhelming amount of scientific evidence supporting the safety and benefit of genetically modified food crops, while simultaneously suppressing evidence suggesting the dangers of these crops? Is anyone that tells their kids these things committing child abuse?
              A mild more subtly pernicious form of it, to be sure, but yes--child abuse. Should they be prosecuted? Unlike Tassman, I wouldn't advocate that. But it is damaging and much more so than Santa Claus stories and your absurd example of George Washington chopping down a cherry tree, which was never a gargantuan problem EVER, whereas YEC anti-evosim obviously is.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                What's the link between Christianity - evolution/science - epistemology that you're talking about? I'm not getting what you're driving at...
                That doesn't surprise me.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by whag View Post
                  Not even close. Telling misinformation about scientific epistemology has much more wide-reaching and damaging effects on children who need to thrive intellectually into adulthood. We see that being played out now in scientific ignorance about climate change, for instance.



                  That depends on how religiously that legend is repeated in the household. If the parents start a cult premised on Washington's cherry tree story, yes, it's child abuse.



                  See above.



                  A mild more subtly pernicious form of it, to be sure, but yes--child abuse. Should they be prosecuted? Unlike Tassman, I wouldn't advocate that. But it is damaging and much more so than Santa Claus stories and your absurd example of George Washington chopping down a cherry tree, which was never a gargantuan problem EVER, whereas YEC anti-evosim obviously is.
                  I wanted to pick a couple of silly examples to start with and progress from there (as indicated by my use of "Getting more serious"). I do find it interesting that you appear to want to equate the seriousness of it with how "religiously" it is taught.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    I wanted to pick a couple of silly examples to start with and progress from there (as indicated by my use of "Getting more serious").
                    I think it would be more effective to go straight to the parallel examples, not the silly ones.


                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    I do find it interesting that you appear to want to equate the seriousness of it with how "religiously" it is taught.
                    Repetition of a falsehood would resemble dogma and obviously be more serious than lying about the Tooth Fairy. If repeated often enough while attaching eternal consequences to it, the Tooth Fairy myth becomes manifestly more serious.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by whag View Post
                      Being apathetic about science doesn't make you cool and detached.
                      Yes, because that's what I'm aiming for.

                      Originally posted by whag View Post
                      It makes you boring.
                      I live to please.

                      Originally posted by whag View Post
                      Apathy about epistemology certainly isn't something to be admired in theism.
                      It's only in your little fantasy world where apathy about evolution is necessarily connected with apathy about epistemology.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by whag View Post
                        I think it would be more effective to go straight to the parallel examples, not the silly ones.
                        I think it is silly to liken teaching YEC to child abuse in the first place.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          I think it is silly to liken teaching YEC to child abuse in the first place.
                          That's, like, just your opinion, man. =P

                          I already specified it's a more subtle and pernicious form of abuse. It's a form of lasting cognitive abuse to teach any child something that isn't true dogmatically (like Scientology, flat earth, geocentrism), which is why your example about George Washington was dumb.

                          Comment


                          • Today's standards of education should certainly including teaching our kids to think critically, "for themselves."
                            The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                            [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Jichard View Post
                              Did you attend a school, or were you home-schooled?

                              I ask, because evolution should be covered in any basic biology course and the age of the Earth is covered in any basic earth science course. In fact, the evidence for evolution and an old-earth is widely available and well-known in our culture, especially on the Internet. One is bound to run into it. So claiming to be an "apathetic" YEC would be akin to claiming to be an "apathetic flat-earther" or an "apathetic AIDS": it wouldn't just result from apathy, but willfully ignoring/rejecting what's widespread in one's culture and school. And that's not apathy.
                              Evolution is extensively taught in the schools but a student will come out with a decent understanding of what it is/how it works, but not the evidence for it. It is simply assumed that the science is true. A student who closely follows their studies would still not be able to come out and address YEC claims.
                              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                                Evolution is extensively taught in the schools but a student will come out with a decent understanding of what it is/how it works, but not the evidence for it. It is simply assumed that the science is true. A student who closely follows their studies would still not be able to come out and address YEC claims.
                                There's a missing link, if you will, between the subject material and the supporting evidence in classrooms.
                                Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                                I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

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