The relationship between religions and the Baha'i Faith, and reasons to believe.

[eider]

Hello!
The thread title:
The relationship between religions and the Baha'i Faith, and reasons to believe.

But this thread opened in contention, conflict, some aggression, with member exclusions and negative 'bits' of information flying off the screen at me. That's how I saw it, Shunyadragon.

So please, could you start again, just for me?
I came here because I have spent so many years debating serious 'miffers'
(extreme atheists who deny the lot ) that I wanted a holiday...... on a site where a majority of members believe that Jesus lived. OK, so that was a culture shock........ If I had arranged this hol with a tour operator I would sue 'em!

I met with Bahai in the early 70's, but was never registered as one, which was introduced circa late 70's, I think. So I'm not sneaking up on you.

Why is your Avatar 'Shunyadragon'?

Are you a 'regular' Bahai or a 'breakaway' Bahai? I can think of largish groups of Bahais who have broken away from the main body over the years.

Why is it that not many Bahais post on theological and religious IT sites? Are they stopped from joining? This is what initiated my question to you about what kind of Bahai you are....

If you only had one paragragh to introduce Bahai to the world, what it it look like?

[shunyadragon]

Hello!
The thread title:
The relationship between religions and the Baha'i Faith, and reasons to believe.

But this thread opened in contention, conflict, some aggression, with member exclusions and negative 'bits' of information flying off the screen at me. That's how I saw it, Shunyadragon.

So please, could you start again, just for me?
I came here because I have spent so many years debating serious 'miffers'
(extreme atheists who deny the lot ) that I wanted a holiday...... on a site where a majority of members believe that Jesus lived. OK, so that was a culture shock........ If I had arranged this hol with a tour operator I would sue 'em!

I met with Bahai in the early 70's, but was never registered as one, which was introduced circa late 70's, I think. So I'm not sneaking up on you.

Why is your Avatar 'Shunyadragon'?

Are you a 'regular' Bahai or a 'breakaway' Bahai? I can think of largish groups of Bahais who have broken away from the main body over the years.

Why is it that not many Bahais post on theological and religious IT sites? Are they stopped from joining? This is what initiated my question to you about what kind of Bahai you are....

If you only had one paragragh to introduce Bahai to the world, what it it look like?

I would like to acknowledge I have read your post and assure you that I will respond soon in more detail.

One important point is this thread represents my beliefs in the Baha'i Faith, and the relationship to other religions and beliefs, and not the Baha'i Faith itself. It is up to the 'independent search for truth' by others in their search and investigation of beliefs.

[eider]

I would like to acknowledge I have read your post and assure you that I will respond soon in more detail.

One important point is this thread represents my beliefs in the Baha'i Faith, and the relationship to other religions and beliefs, and not the Baha'i Faith itself. It is up to the 'independent search for truth' by others in their search and investigation of beliefs.

OK.
I will wait for your reply........

[shunyadragon]

OK.
I will wait for your reply........

There is another thread that goes in to considerable detail as to what and why I believe, and worthwhile to read.

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...believe-in-God

Many posters challenge me as if I am the authority, and hang on my words the claims of 'truth' of the Baha'i Faith, but this is far from the truth or facts of my posts.

[paramount]

In case anyone missed it, according to the first verse of the Baha'i Bible, the Kitab-i Aqdas, all non-Baha'is are astray:

"The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration." (Baha'u'llah, Kitab-i Aqdas, verse 1)

This is "The relationship between religions and the Baha'i Faith". Case closed.

[shunyadragon]

In case anyone missed it, according to the first verse of the Baha'i Bible, the Kitab-i Aqdas, all non-Baha'is are astray:



This is "The relationship between religions and the Baha'i Faith". Case closed.

Good quote! But it is not the whole story of the relationship. At the Advent of all the Manifestation of God it is incumbent recognize the Day spring of the Revelation of God. It was true of Jesus Christ at the time of his Revelation. If you are not a Theist, then of course this is not meaningful to you.

[paramount]

Good quote! But it is not the whole story of the relationship. At the Advent of all the Manifestation of God it is incumbent recognize the Day spring of the Revelation of God. It was true of Jesus Christ at the time of his Revelation. If you are not a Theist, then of course this is not meaningful to you.

Non-Baha'is DO NOT recognize Baha'u'llah's station and thus according to Baha'u'llah's words are astray. It's very simple.

[eider]

Many posters challenge me as if I am the authority, and hang on my words the claims of 'truth' of the Baha'i Faith, but this is far from the truth or facts of my posts.

I read the OP on that thread.
Am I right in guessing that you are an unorthodox Bahai?

I have read two Bahais on other forums and they will only quote exactly what Bahauallah or his Som (Grandson?) wrote, word for word...?

[Adrift]

I read the OP on that thread.
Am I right in guessing that you are an unorthodox Bahai?

I have read two Bahais on other forums and they will only quote exactly what Bahauallah or his Som (Grandson?) wrote, word for word...?

You'll find that shunya is not very versed, or consistent about Bahai' teaching, and sort of makes things up as he goes along. He's not so much unorthodox as he is plain ignorant about it. As far as I can tell, he mostly uses the Bahai faith tag as a way to down talk other religions (specifically Christianity) while maintaining that he himself is religious, but his long record here at Theology Web demonstrates a greater affinity for naturalistic atheism.

[eider]

You'll find that shunya is not very versed, or consistent about Bahai' teaching, and sort of makes things up as he goes along. He's not so much unorthodox as he is plain ignorant about it. As far as I can tell, he mostly uses the Bahai faith tag as a way to down talk other religions (specifically Christianity) while maintaining that he himself is religious, but his long record here at Theology Web demonstrates a greater affinity for naturalistic atheism.

Thankyou for your post.It is unusual for 'orthodox' Bahai's to post Bahai or personal religious opinion on Internet Forums unless they hold some kind of acknowledged dispensation to do so. And in answer to 94%+ of all questions asked of them they will quote verbatim from what Baha'u'allah, his son or grandson actually wrote, as a reply.

Sadly there was a serious disruption about 50 years ago on the death of the Bahai 'Hand of the Cause' Shogi Effendi, when a prominent US Bahai nominated himself as the successor and new spirityual leader for the faith. He was 'excommunicated' by tghe Bahai World assembly, and many of his followers left with him. Since then many other groups have left, and the reason for some of these splits could be that as Bahauallah's writings are translated, so various groups are discxovering that they do not wish for 'main-stream' Bahai but cannot leave it completely.

Hence my question...... othodox or not.....
I perceive that there are many problems and difficulties with the Bahai Faith.
Many years ago I was a 'friend' because my wife was a Bahai, so I duid learn quite a lot, but after her death many years ago they distanced themselves........ I don't belong to the Kent Hills Moonlight Naked Frollickers or anything, but you would have thought that I did, the way I was distanced...

[shunyadragon]

I read the OP on that thread.
Am I right in guessing that you are an unorthodox Bahai?

I have read two Bahais on other forums and they will only quote exactly what Bahauallah or his Som (Grandson?) wrote, word for word...?

I very much disagree. It is not a question of being an orthodox nor unorthodox Baha'i. I am neither an orthodox nor unorthodox Baha'i, I am a Baha'i. There were in the past other Baha'is on the old Tweb, and they did not just cite Baha'i writings in response to questions. I do at times cite Baha'i writings. I can cite other forums where there are Baha'is who participate, and yes they also did not 'only cite' Baha'i writings. It is against Tweb rules to cite, describe and refer to other debate forums here. If you wish I can send you references to you personally through your email.

I am here to debate, and not parrot writings all the time from any religion. Adrift and many others are totally clueless as to the teachings and writings of the Baha'i Faith.

Actually, most of my time here on Tweb is debating and discussing science, and philosophy on Tweb. In philosophy I do debate the arguments for the existence of God, particularly when science is involved.

If you are interested in a dialogue and posting in my threads please reply specifically to the issues of the thread, and if you wish cite the Baha'i writings as some others have done.

[eider]

I very much disagree. It is not a question of being an orthodox nor unorthodox Baha'i. I am neither an orthodox nor unorthodox Baha'i, I am a Baha'i. There were in the past other Baha'is on the old Tweb, and they did not just cite Baha'i writings in response to questions. I do at times cite Baha'i writings. I can cite other forums where there are Baha'is who participate, and yes they also did not 'only cite' Baha'i writings. It is against Tweb rules to cite, describe and refer to other debate forums here. If you wish I can send you references to you personally through your email.

All I know is, that I asked you to present your Faith, if you could, and you haven't. In so many words you told me to go look for myself. (individual invesigation, etc)

I am here to debate, and not parrot writings all the time from any religion. Adrift and many others are totally clueless as to the teachings and writings of the Baha'i Faith.

Well most Bahais that I knew preferred to always quote Baha'u'allah when they could. Individual interpretation could lead to schisms, they said. It's very easy for any members to have instant access to Bahai writings (so far translated). The good old internet is amazing for that.

If you are interested in a dialogue and posting in my threads please reply specifically to the issues of the thread, and if you wish cite the Baha'i writings as some others have done.

What?........... reasons to believe?.... like in the thread title?
I asked you for these.......... was told to go find out all by myself!!!!

You're not exactly welcoming....... your threads are hardly as inviting as Bahai Firesides!

I

[shunyadragon]

All I know is, that I asked you to present your Faith, if you could, and you haven't. In so many words you told me to go look for myself. (individual invesigation, etc)



Well most Bahais that I knew preferred to always quote Baha'u'allah when they could. Individual interpretation could lead to schisms, they said. It's very easy for any members to have instant access to Bahai writings (so far translated). The good old internet is amazing for that.

The problem personal debate issues of individual schisms and disunity is within the Baha'i, and how Baha'is consult on issues and the writings within the Baha'i Faith. Loving consultation in the name spiritual unity

What?........... reasons to believe?.... like in the thread title?
I asked you for these.......... was told to go find out all by myself!!!!

Both are valid. My reasons to believe are the basis of a dialogue on philosophical and theological reasons why I believe. Personal reflection on why on believes is a perfectly legitimate basis for a dialogue to give a deeper personal dimension to the philosophy of belief. The question 'why?' is the primary question of belief in theology and philosophy. The bottom line is everyone must on their own investigate the writings and the nature of the Baha'i Faith in terms of the reasons they make their own choices of belief, and not depend on other 'individuals' as an authority.

You're not exactly welcoming....... your threads are hardly as inviting as Bahai Firesides!

My intent here is hard debating and apologetics.

There is more than a hint of stereotyping on how ALL Baha'is must debate and dialogue with others who believe differently.

There are abundant resources on the internet, in Baha'i centers and cmmunities and else where that are nice and friendly invitations to investigate the Baha'i Faith.

[shunyadragon]

You're not exactly welcoming....... your threads are hardly as inviting as Baha'i Firesides!

I

In teaching the Baha'i Faith in firesides, and public presentations, which I am often involved in, it is informative Baha'i writings and teachings in consultative dialogue.

Tweb is hard style debating site, and I am here to learn debate issues and problems relate to belief, the question 'why?,' philosophy and science. I am a strict Methodological Naturalist when it comes to science, and debate that side of the issues.

Review the threads carefully and you will find most of the hostility is from the others who debate hard against the Baha'i Faith. Presenting and debating problems in ancient religions, like the lack of harmony between science and religion, is part of the debate.

If there has been outright hostility on my part please cite my posts where this is the case. Citing my views problems and debating these issues is not hostility toward other religions and beliefs. Please review the other thread where I presented 'Why I believe,' and IF you can cite hostility towards others who believe differently or other religions.

[Adrift]

Thankyou for your post.It is unusual for 'orthodox' Bahai's to post Bahai or personal religious opinion on Internet Forums unless they hold some kind of acknowledged dispensation to do so. And in answer to 94%+ of all questions asked of them they will quote verbatim from what Baha'u'allah, his son or grandson actually wrote, as a reply.

Sadly there was a serious disruption about 50 years ago on the death of the Bahai 'Hand of the Cause' Shogi Effendi, when a prominent US Bahai nominated himself as the successor and new spirityual leader for the faith. He was 'excommunicated' by tghe Bahai World assembly, and many of his followers left with him. Since then many other groups have left, and the reason for some of these splits could be that as Bahauallah's writings are translated, so various groups are discxovering that they do not wish for 'main-stream' Bahai but cannot leave it completely.

Hence my question...... othodox or not.....
I perceive that there are many problems and difficulties with the Bahai Faith.
Many years ago I was a 'friend' because my wife was a Bahai, so I duid learn quite a lot, but after her death many years ago they distanced themselves........ I don't belong to the Kent Hills Moonlight Naked Frollickers or anything, but you would have thought that I did, the way I was distanced...

Ah, I see. I'm familiar with a couple of heterodox and ex-Baha'i splits on other forums like Reddit (shunya is mistaken, there's no rule prohibiting the mention of other forums on this one). Most of those who split seem to split over issues like the Baha'i treatment of women and homosexuals from what I can see, and yeah, I've read a bit about the history of Baha'i and the split between assumed successors. Most of them seem relatively small. From what I can tell, Sen McGlinn, one of the posters earlier in this thread is one of the more prominent recent splitters. As I understand it he's something of a Baha'i scholar, or at least very versed in Baha'i teaching and history, but was excommunicated for casting doubt on the infallibility of the House of Justice.

We've not had many Baha'i's on this forum though. Maybe two others years ago, and they weren't very prolific posters (maybe a couple dozen posts), and, as I recall, they didn't speak that much about the Baha'i faith directly. Sen McGlinn is the only one that I know who's actually spent much time discussing it on this forum, mostly correcting shunyadragon over Baha'i teaching, and Sen has a grand total of 18 posts, so yeah, we don't talk much about it here. When non-Baha'i's do mention it here, it's mostly in appreciation of many of it's beliefs. You won't find much bad mouthing of that faith here from non-Baha'i's. Most people here don't know what it teaches, and those that do have few issues with it. shunya, on the other hand, chomps at the bit to denigrate non-Baha'i faiths (again, specifically Christianity). Most of us have come to realize that he's likely not representative of your average Baha'i though.