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Hated and feared by a world they are sworn to protect, the X-Men face off against sin

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Abigail View Post
    If NZ is like UK then I think the resentment has probably come from the hypocrisy Christians are witnessing:
    *Liberals complaining about Christians preaching the Gospel when giving aid, yet now doing something equivalent and even threatening to withhold aid if people do not comply with their demands
    * Increasingly a despised minority Christians receive no special concessions such as were demanded by gays for themselves. Christians are often belittled for their faith as are Christian children at school with teachers often doing nothing about it, some even actively belittling it too. This has become worse and worse over the last 20 years and Christian children who are not able to withstand the pressure often abandon their faith which, if they never return, is a form of spiritual suicide and is for us in effect the same as physical suicide. Yet all we ever hear about is suicide of gays (which of course are a tragedy).

    R.E. classes in UK claim to be about learning about the different faiths so that children can understand people of different faiths. My children had to do all sorts ie visit mosques where they had to take off their shoes and go through the motions acting respectfully. Making Happy Ramadan cards etc. Write an essay pretending they were a Hindu child and how they would go about offering to the god in their home and temple and what they would offer and how they would go through the rituals etc. With Christianity they had to write about what else they could think of that could explain the resurrection appearances. They were told Christians don't believe dinosaurs exist (this is such a caricature as not even YEC's believe this). The one teacher linked to a youtube video which was totally mocking of Christianity and sat there smiling along with it as the class watched. So why the non-biased reporting on the other faiths but then just caricature, criticism and attack when it came to Christianity. Double standards and hypocrisy because if they are going to attack and belittle Christianity then they should attack and belittle all the faiths. This is hardly lost on the children and undermines the message that "we must be tolerant of people with other faiths" - not that liberals ever believed that any way.
    This is over the top on these issues in the USA, and clearly an exaggeration. Yes, the mocking of religion does occur in this country and includes the mocking of Islam, but the exaggeration and generalizing of liberals the way you do above is outrageous and mocking liberals in a manner you accuse others as mocking Christians. It is clearly well documented that sometimes Christians mock other religions, and outright condemn most.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      This has created a certain amount of resentment at being abandoned politically, and has spawned a new 'Conservative' party focused on moral issues... it almost won a seat in parliament last election (it got 4% of the total nationwide vote, and needed 5%). I would give them a 50-50 chance of getting 5% if they try again next election (which would make it the 5th biggest of the 7 parties in parliament).
      Annnnnd, the (as of yesterday, ex-)leader of that party is in the news today, apparently being the subject of allegations of sexual harassment. This married man was the political face of Christian family values... at least when he wasn't busy writing love poems (they've been leaked) to his secretary.

      Which is all strangely reminiscent of the previous minor conservative Christian party this country had, which folded in 2006 after its leader was charged with multiple sexual offences against young girls. And also reminiscent of another leader of a small historically-Christian/family-values oriented party, who had to resign from his ministerial portfolio two years ago after leaking confidential papers to a journalist he was apparently having an affair with.

      So the Christian family-values political figures here appear to literally have a 100% failure rate when it comes to sexual morality in their own lives. It seems to me that the main reason conservatives seem to feel the need to tell others what to do so loudly is because what they're really against is the sin in their own lives that they're unable to deal with.

      Meanwhile their lives are a shining testimony to the non-Christian majority of the country as to what godly Christian lives look like... oh, wait...
      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

      Comment


      • #18
        CS Lewis wrote an essay called "The Decline of Religion" (collated into his book "God in the Dock") in the 1940s. He wrote:
        http://www.acrossthepage.net/2012/12...e-of-religion/
        The ‘decline of religion’ so often lamented (or welcomed) is held to be shown by empty chapels. Now it is quite true that chapels which were full in 1900 are empty in 1946. But this change was not gradual. It occurred at the precise moment when chapel ceased to be compulsory… The withdrawal of compulsion did not create a new religious situation, but only revealed the situation which had long existed. And this is typical of the ‘decline in religion’ all over England.

        In every class and every part of the country the visible practice of Christianity has grown very much less in the last fifty years. This is often taken to show that the nation as a whole has passed from a Christian to a secular outlook. But if we judge the nineteenth century from the books it wrote, the outlook of our grandfathers (with a very few exceptions) was quite as secular as our own. The novels of Meredith, Trollope, and Thackeray are not written either by or for men who see this world as the vestibule of eternity, who regard pride as the greatest of sins, who desire to be poor in spirit, and look for a supernatural salvation. Even more significant is the absence from Dickens’ Christmas Carol of any interest in the Incarnation. Mary, the Magi, and the Angels are replaced by ‘spirits’ of his own invention, and the animals present are not the ox and ass of the stable but the goose and turkey in the poulterer’s shop...

        Thus the ‘decline of religion’ becomes a very ambiguous phenomenon. One way of putting the truth would be that the religion which has declined was not Christianity. It was a vague Theism with a strong and virile ethical code, which, far from standing over against the ‘World’, was absorbed into the whole fabric of English institutions…

        The decline of ‘religion’, thus understood, seems to me in some ways a blessing.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
          I don't expect either of those quotes will quite speak for themselves to a non-Christian audience, but I'm not sure exactly which points will require the most clarification, so... if you have questions about either quote, let me know and I'll try to give some more context.
          I used to be a Christian, so I understand perfectly well what they're both saying. But I'm not a Christian now, so I disagree with both of them.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
            I used to be a Christian, so I understand perfectly well what they're both saying. But I'm not a Christian now, so I disagree with both of them.
            Do you disagree in any but the most obvious sense? For example, do you disagree with Ratzinger's assertion that people "in a totally planned world will find themselves unspeakably lonely"?
            Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
              For example, do you disagree with Ratzinger's assertion that people "in a totally planned world will find themselves unspeakably lonely"?
              That was the only bit of your quotes that wasn't immediately obvious in meaning. What exactly is the phrase "a totally planned world" supposed to mean, and why is that likely to be "unspeakably lonely"? I would have thought that if, say, in the future the Google 2.0 AI is planning the world down to the tiniest detail, and selecting optimal friends and spouses for everyone, that would be likely to be a world which was particularly filled with good company (carefully selected to be good) and hence the opposite of lonely.
              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                Do you disagree in any but the most obvious sense? For example, do you disagree with Ratzinger's assertion that people "in a totally planned world will find themselves unspeakably lonely"?
                I wonder what does Ratzinger, or you, mean by a "totally planned world" as opposed to his, or your own, idealised version of a world from the christian perspective?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                  That was the only bit of your quotes that wasn't immediately obvious in meaning. What exactly is the phrase "a totally planned world" supposed to mean, and why is that likely to be "unspeakably lonely"? I would have thought that if, say, in the future the Google 2.0 AI is planning the world down to the tiniest detail, and selecting optimal friends and spouses for everyone, that would be likely to be a world which was particularly filled with good company (carefully selected to be good) and hence the opposite of lonely.
                  I'm sure we're all looking forward to the day when computer programs prevent us from ever having to encounter DE (or you) again, so we can all get surrounded by our political echo chambers. That'll help EVERYONE live more harmoniously.

                  I don't think Ratzinger in the 60s was anticipating social network friend algorithms, nor was he talking about the worst sort of totalitarian regime, though I think (I can't say his meaning is entirely clear to me) the idea of central planning and the expansion of state responsibility relates to it. When every problem we have has an institutional answer, we lose our initiative. We lose our ability to see and respond concretely to the needs of others-- because that's what the government/whatever institution you like is for. Best to leave it to the experts. Or the algorithm. Whichever you prefer. In either case, we lose the sense of responsibility toward the needs of those around us, or the capacity to really encounter another person.

                  I don't know if I'm explaining this very well- if anyone else thinks they grasp what I'm getting at, feel free to jump in - but suffice it to say I don't find a technocratic society particularly appealing.
                  Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                    Do you disagree in any but the most obvious sense? For example, do you disagree with Ratzinger's assertion that people "in a totally planned world will find themselves unspeakably lonely"?
                    The problem isn't planning as such. Depending on how the world was planned, the people could be mighty unhappy, but I see no reason to think loneliness would be a major problem.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                      The problem isn't planning as such. Depending on how the world was planned, the people could be mighty unhappy, but I see no reason to think loneliness would be a major problem.
                      So let's consider what sort of "totally planned" society Ratzinger may have had in mind when he wrote that. I think the technocratic welfare state I discussed briefly above is a plausible explication of his meaning, though perhaps I should explain the concept further? The trouble is that the further we get into my interpretation, the further we might be getting from Ratzinger... but I'll take that risk if you will.
                      Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by GakuseiDon View Post
                        CS Lewis wrote an essay called "The Decline of Religion" (collated into his book "God in the Dock") in the 1940s. He wrote:
                        http://www.acrossthepage.net/2012/12...e-of-religion/
                        The ‘decline of religion’ so often lamented (or welcomed) is held to be shown by empty chapels. Now it is quite true that chapels which were full in 1900 are empty in 1946. But this change was not gradual. It occurred at the precise moment when chapel ceased to be compulsory… The withdrawal of compulsion did not create a new religious situation, but only revealed the situation which had long existed. And this is typical of the ‘decline in religion’ all over England.

                        In every class and every part of the country the visible practice of Christianity has grown very much less in the last fifty years. This is often taken to show that the nation as a whole has passed from a Christian to a secular outlook. But if we judge the nineteenth century from the books it wrote, the outlook of our grandfathers (with a very few exceptions) was quite as secular as our own. The novels of Meredith, Trollope, and Thackeray are not written either by or for men who see this world as the vestibule of eternity, who regard pride as the greatest of sins, who desire to be poor in spirit, and look for a supernatural salvation. Even more significant is the absence from Dickens’ Christmas Carol of any interest in the Incarnation. Mary, the Magi, and the Angels are replaced by ‘spirits’ of his own invention, and the animals present are not the ox and ass of the stable but the goose and turkey in the poulterer’s shop...

                        Thus the ‘decline of religion’ becomes a very ambiguous phenomenon. One way of putting the truth would be that the religion which has declined was not Christianity. It was a vague Theism with a strong and virile ethical code, which, far from standing over against the ‘World’, was absorbed into the whole fabric of English institutions…

                        The decline of ‘religion’, thus understood, seems to me in some ways a blessing.
                        I suppose one takeaway from this, along with the Ratzinger quote, is that some of the more perceptive minds within Christianity have seen the collapse of cultural Christianity coming for some time. They know it comes with a painful cost, but they see it as a way of bringing Christianity back to its roots. They weren't worried: why should I be?
                        Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                          I suppose one takeaway from this, along with the Ratzinger quote, is that some of the more perceptive minds within Christianity have seen the collapse of cultural Christianity coming for some time. They know it comes with a painful cost, but they see it as a way of bringing Christianity back to its roots. They weren't worried: why should I be?
                          Another way to look at it would be that for society Christianity itself was never really the point, the strong and virile ethical code was. People no longer need christianity or any other religion to be forced down their throats in order to believe in a God, or if a non believer, to have a personal sense of morality. So what are these "painful costs" that these perceptive christian minds associate with the collapse of christianity?
                          Last edited by JimL; 06-21-2015, 05:48 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                            I suppose one takeaway from this, along with the Ratzinger quote, is that some of the more perceptive minds within Christianity have seen the collapse of cultural Christianity coming for some time.
                            I would tend to say that various Christians have been apocalpytically predicting the literal apocalypse since pretty much day one. They've been pretty much 100% wrong thus far.

                            Also a lot of Christians seem to have both a martyr complex and a persecution complex - they both desperately wish that they were really being persecuted for their faith so they could prove their faith in Christ, and simultaneously tell themselves what massive victims they are any time they fall even the least bit afoul of the most minor law and convince themselves that the entire secular world is out to get them.
                            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              So what are these "painful costs" that these perceptive christian minds associate with the collapse of christianity?
                              People will bleed to death out of the Jesus-shaped hole in their hearts.


                              Okay, so I couldn't resist that. But my point is that Christians tend to come up with dubious pop-psychology (like "everyone has a secret unfulfilled yearning for Jesus, that we'll call a 'Jesus-shaped hole in their heart'"), or dubious pop-sociology (like "without the Church's moral teachings, society will collapse into anarchy"), that rest not only on zero evidence but run directly counter to all observable evidence. "Perceptive" Christian minds then project those ideas out into a future without Christianity and make absurd statements about how awful society will be. They selectively choose to forget that quite a lot of different human civilizations and cultures existed and thrived prior to the existence of Christianity or prior to the arrival of Christian missionaries.
                              Last edited by Starlight; 06-21-2015, 06:17 AM.
                              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                                People will bleed to death out of the Jesus-shaped hole in their hearts.


                                Okay, so I couldn't resist that. But my point is that Christians tend to come up with dubious pop-psychology (like "everyone has a secret unfulfilled yearning for Jesus, that we'll call a 'Jesus-shaped hole in their heart'"), or dubious pop-sociology (like "without the Church's moral teachings, society will collapse into anarchy"), that rest not only on zero evidence but run directly counter to all observable evidence. "Perceptive" Christian minds then project those ideas out into a future without Christianity and make absurd statements about how awful society will be. They selectively choose to forget that quite a lot of different human civilizations and cultures existed and thrived prior to the existence of Christianity or prior to the arrival of Christian missionaries.
                                I think that religions emerged along side of the emergence of civilized societies and is therefore thought to be necessary in order that civilization not collapse into chaos. I'm not sure if that, to a certain extent may not be true, but it is not a case for the truth of the religion itself. I think that people are a bit more sophisticated enough in this age to decide for themselves whether a God exists or not without assigning that to a particular notion of God, as well as to be a good citizen even if they are non-believers. Perhaps the very religious themselves is the reason we need religion. Perhaps they wouldn't be able to behave themselves without it.

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