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Pondering Apologetics ~ Why do all the canvassers have such terrible arguments?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Jaecp View Post
    Get out of my thread
    Are you OK?
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Jaecp View Post
      "Why do religious canvassers have such terrible arguments?"
      I think you're starting with a false premise. Some do, some don't.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Jaecp View Post
        OTOH, 3/4ths of the US is explicitly Christian. These people are, by the tenets of evangelical's, already saved. So if the goal is to save souls, they need to actually go after people who don't already believe, but their entire arsenal is, again as far as I've seen, woefully inadequate.
        "explicitly Christian". That's interesting. Define "Christian" as used in this declaration, please.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          Are you OK?
          Yeah. I think I'm just going to pre-ban him from my threads from now on. As a mod, got any suggestions for the best, least intrusive to other forum members, way to accomplish that?

          I think you're starting with a false premise. Some do, some don't.
          Even if I grant this, it must be a pretty rare bird since every other comment has been some variation of "well, yeah, they're generally young, passionate and stupid" with a few "well, other people suck, too"

          Might as well respond to a thread where someone talks about being annoyed when a dogs tail whacks him in the shins with "well, not all dogs have tails"

          "explicitly Christian". That's interesting. Define "Christian" as used in this declaration, please.
          http://www.gallup.com/poll/159548/id...christian.aspx

          Self identification, CP. Do I really need to define what a Christian is to you and that the United States is overwhelming Christian?

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Jaecp View Post
            Yeah. I think I'm just going to pre-ban him from my threads from now on. As a mod, got any suggestions for the best, least intrusive to other forum members, way to accomplish that?
            I recommend tolerance. I know Pap can be annoying at times, but he's often right on. You could post a notice in the OP that he is not to post, or you can ask that all posts be civil and polite, but I just don't see the need to pre-ban.

            Even if I grant this, it must be a pretty rare bird since every other comment has been some variation of "well, yeah, they're generally young, passionate and stupid" with a few "well, other people suck, too"
            The squeeky wheel, perhaps - who's going to complain about a polite and effective witness. You set the tone for griping.

            Might as well respond to a thread where someone talks about being annoyed when a dogs tail whacks him in the shins with "well, not all dogs have tails"
            You seem to want people to treat you with respect, and be civil, but you don't seem to be setting the tone for that.

            http://www.gallup.com/poll/159548/id...christian.aspx

            Self identification, CP. Do I really need to define what a Christian is to you and that the United States is overwhelming Christian?
            Here's the first part of that poll, and it's from three years ago:

            PRINCETON, NJ -- The large majority of Americans -- 77% of the adult population -- identify with a Christian religion, including 52% who are Protestants or some other non-Catholic Christian religion, 23% who are Catholic, and 2% who affiliate with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Another 18% of Americans do not have an explicit religious identity and 5% identify with a non-Christian religion.


            Note the wording -- "identify with a Christian religion". Doesn't mean they're actually living the Christian life, or even that they're saved. There are a lot of people who attend Church for various reasons, or identify as a "Christian" as opposed to pagan or Jew or Muslim or whatever else.

            I've noted elsewhere that when I go to Haiti, the locals often ask "are you a Christian or a Catholic". The implication is that Catholics are not Christians.

            Some people "identify as Christian" because they came from a Christian home. I hear people say "well, yeah, I was practically born in Church". That doesn't make them a Christian.

            If a cat crawled in an oven and gave birth to kittens, would you call them muffins?
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Adrift View Post
              I can't speak for the other religions, but a lot of times zeal outweighs the patience it takes to be fully prepared. When you're young in your faith, you want to share it with as many people as soon as possible because you want everyone to know and experience what you now know and experience. Being fully prepared to handle and communicate deep theological questions and ideas takes time, and the type of wisdom that comes with maturity.
              I agree with all that, but unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a middle ground. It seems like you're either hot or cold. (not you, Adrift - the editorial "you") I don't find too many "experienced" Christians taking time to coach or guide the zealous new Christian. Instead, it seems the "mature" Christian is a wet blanket on the new Christian's fire.

              And as with all things, what's fresh, and new and exciting today can eventually be tempered tomorrow.
              Or extinguished.

              One's love for one's wife may be deeper now than it was when the two first met, but rarely is it as passionate, and I think it's the same in regards to one's faith. Also, with time, people often find that going door to door, or standing at street corners isn't a particularly effective way to evangelize.
              I think, obviously, times have changed. I encourage "friendship evangelism" - being an effective witness at work, with family, friends... patiently being the example, and being open to those "bridge questions" and doing the 1 Peter 3:15 thing.

              The sad thing is, I hear people say "well, I don't preach or shove the Gospel down their throats, but I live my life in such a way that they'll know I'm a Christian". Unfortunately, quite honestly, most of the people who tell me that don't seem to live much differently from the other people they associate with. I think the 1 Peter 3:15 thing assumed that there was going to be something pretty obviously different about your life that people would ask, "what makes you so different...."

              The main thing is to make the main thing the main thing.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by CP
                I recommend tolerance. I know Pap can be annoying at times, but he's often right on. You could post a notice in the OP that he is not to post, or you can ask that all posts be civil and polite, but I just don't see the need to pre-ban.
                He's like a mini DE without the amusingly insane posts. I've shown patience both times, but at a certain point I gotta pull the plug.

                Originally posted by CP
                The squeeky wheel, perhaps - who's going to complain about a polite and effective witness. You set the tone for griping.
                Polite and effective would be quite the treat. How often do you think that happens?

                You seem to want people to treat you with respect, and be civil, but you don't seem to be setting the tone for that.
                I'd settle for on topic and direct

                Here's the first part of that poll, and it's from three years ago:

                PRINCETON, NJ -- The large majority of Americans -- 77% of the adult population -- identify with a Christian religion, including 52% who are Protestants or some other non-Catholic Christian religion, 23% who are Catholic, and 2% who affiliate with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Another 18% of Americans do not have an explicit religious identity and 5% identify with a non-Christian religion.


                Note the wording -- "identify with a Christian religion". Doesn't mean they're actually living the Christian life, or even that they're saved. There are a lot of people who attend Church for various reasons, or identify as a "Christian" as opposed to pagan or Jew or Muslim or whatever else.

                I've noted elsewhere that when I go to Haiti, the locals often ask "are you a Christian or a Catholic". The implication is that Catholics are not Christians.

                Some people "identify as Christian" because they came from a Christian home. I hear people say "well, yeah, I was practically born in Church". That doesn't make them a Christian.

                If a cat crawled in an oven and gave birth to kittens, would you call them muffins?
                The distinctions that subsections of Christians use to try to claim that other Christians aren't really Christians isn't of much interest to me. Your religious is ubiquitous in America. Unless you have some alternative way to figure out how many Christians there are in the US than polls, then you have no real basis for challenging the numbers given. Pew has found similar numbers, for what thats worth.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Jaecp View Post
                  The distinctions that subsections of Christians use to try to claim that other Christians aren't really Christians isn't of much interest to me.
                  I suppose it should not surprise me that you're not interested in the facts.

                  Your religious is ubiquitous in America.
                  My religious what?

                  Unless you have some alternative way to figure out how many Christians there are in the US than polls, then you have no real basis for challenging the numbers given.
                  The polls I see that support the numbers you indicate say "identify with a Christian religion", not that they are Christians.

                  Pew has found similar numbers, for what thats worth.
                  Citation, please.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Jaecp View Post
                    OTOH, 3/4ths of the US is explicitly Christian. These people are, by the tenets of evangelical's, already saved. So if the goal is to save souls, they need to actually go after people who don't already believe, but their entire arsenal is, again as far as I've seen, woefully inadequate.
                    You seem to ramble here.... First, you're assuming that 75% of the people in the US are "already saved". Let's assume, for the same of argument, that's actually true. Do we just throw up our hands, then, and say the heck with the other 25%? That's 20,000,000 people! And, perhaps you hadn't thought about the fact that you can't just look at a person and say, "oh, they're saved, I don't need to talk to them.

                    Not sure what that has to do, however, with "their entire arsenal" being "woefully inadequate".
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by CP
                      I suppose it should not surprise me that you're not interested in the facts.
                      You provided anecdotes and supposing. And did you really expect me to treat the ways that one group of Christians tries to say another group isn't really Christian as a matter of facts?

                      My religious what?
                      Really?

                      You seem to ramble here.... First, you're assuming that 75% of the people in the US are "already saved". Let's assume, for the same of argument, that's actually true. Do we just throw up our hands, then, and say the heck with the other 25%? That's 20,000,000 people! And, perhaps you hadn't thought about the fact that you can't just look at a person and say, "oh, they're saved, I don't need to talk to them.

                      Not sure what that has to do, however, with "their entire arsenal" being "woefully inadequate".
                      I already talk about this a little in the OP.

                      Originally posted by J
                      Basically, every single person I've come across who had the motivation to actually get outside of their comfort zone and do the street team thing has been woefully unprepared for anyone who isn't a lapsed Christian ready to be cajoled into going to church.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Jaecp View Post
                        You provided anecdotes and supposing. And did you really expect me to treat the ways that one group of Christians tries to say another group isn't really Christian as a matter of facts?
                        Woah, slow down.... I cited the very article you used. It says that this large number of people "identify with a Christian religion". That, sir, is a FACT. It does NOT say they claim to be Christians. The FACT is that they simply claim to "identify with" a Christian religion. That could mean their family is "Christian" as opposed to atheist, or they occasionally attend a Christian Church.

                        You said "Your religious is ubiquitous in America." "religious" is an adjective, but you seem to have left out the object. Unless, of course, you meant "religion". Don't blame ME for your wacko phraseology or lack of clarity.

                        I already talk about this a little in the OP.
                        The fact that you "already talked about" something doesn't make it true or irrelevant.
                        Last edited by Cow Poke; 06-09-2015, 06:20 PM.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          Woah, slow down.... I cited the very article you used. It says that this large number of people "identify with a Christian religion". That, sir, is a FACT. It does NOT say they claim to be Christians. The FACT is that they simply claim to "identify with" a Christian religion. That could mean their family is "Christian" as opposed to atheist, or they occasionally attend a Christian Church.



                          You said "Your religious is ubiquitous in America." "religious" is an adjective, but you seem to have left out the object. Unless, of course, you meant "religion". Don't blame ME for your wacko phraseology or lack of clarity.



                          The fact that you "already talked about" something doesn't make it true or irrelevant.
                          Jaecp doesn't admit to errors, no matter what. Don't worry, I'm sure his next post will be 'throwing me out' for daring to disagree with him. It's his way of avoiding people questioning him. Can't refute them? Throw them out and I'm sure you'll be shown the door soon enough as you keep showing his failure to read.
                          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            You seem to ramble here.... First, you're assuming that 75% of the people in the US are "already saved". Let's assume, for the same of argument, that's actually true. Do we just throw up our hands, then, and say the heck with the other 25%? That's 20,000,000 people! And, perhaps you hadn't thought about the fact that you can't just look at a person and say, "oh, they're saved, I don't need to talk to them.

                            Not sure what that has to do, however, with "their entire arsenal" being "woefully inadequate".
                            By that insane logic. If a fireman comes to a building that is on fire and 75% of them made it out; they shouldn't bother to try to go and save the other 25%. What Jaecp seems to not understand is that Christians see this as a serious issue that has repercussions for eternity. It would be the same as a fire dept not bothering to get every last person out of a burning building that they could possibility save.
                            "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                            GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                              By that insane logic. If a fireman comes to a building that is on fire and 75% of them made it out; they shouldn't bother to try to go and save the other 25%. What Jaecp seems to not understand is that Christians see this as a serious issue that has repercussions for eternity. It would be the same as a fire dept not bothering to get every last person out of a burning building that they could possibility save.
                              After all - the shepherd left the 99 to search for 1.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                Woah, slow down.... I cited the very article you used. It says that this large number of people "identify with a Christian religion". That, sir, is a FACT. It does NOT say they claim to be Christians. The FACT is that they simply claim to "identify with" a Christian religion. That could mean their family is "Christian" as opposed to atheist, or they occasionally attend a Christian Church.
                                I was referring to your bits about the Haitan's and that. The thing with you trying to create alternative interpretations of what identify means in the context of a poll about peoples religious beliefs is just torturing language. Polling agencies don't have the authority to declare who is or is not Christian. All they can do is say how much of the country says they are.

                                You said "Your religious is ubiquitous in America." "religious" is an adjective, but you seem to have left out the object. Unless, of course, you meant "religion". Don't blame ME for your wacko phraseology or lack of clarity.
                                Oh, looks like I made a typo. Yes, I meant religion.

                                The fact that you "already talked about" something doesn't make it true or irrelevant.
                                My comments were drawing a parallel between the targets of soul saving and the methodology of soul saving that was being discussed. Would you disagree with the sentiment that the kind of arguments to get someone back to church and ones to actually start the conversion process from a non-believer (whether they be atheist or of another religion) have little, if any, overlap; and, if you do believe there is overlap could you give an example?

                                Comment

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