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Witnessing to Atheists

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  • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    I'm not claiming that. Just that If someone didn't observe and record it, we have to make an educated guess about what happened. I just would rather not be dogmatic about things that happened a long time ago. It may be a misconception, but I thought science was about repeatable experiments or something.
    *sigh*

    The rocks and fossils were there. We can observe them and record our observations. We can run experiments to tell us how old they were, and repeat them as necessary. We have living fossils in our DNA, genes that have been passed down for billions of years. We have methods to compare them among living species to tell us about their common ancestors. These are the same methods we use for paternity testing. You can learn these things from biologists right there at your school. Just walk into one of their offices and ask.

    Now please? Stop? Pretty please? With sugar on it? CP will give you ice cream!

    Comment


    • I'm trying to get back on track. I just don't like being called a fundy!
      If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
        Dear CP,

        The point is ... it needs to be a real danger. Or at the very least, a danger that can be avoided.

        Death is inevitable, and if there's anything after death, it's done an amazingly good job of keeping itself hidden. So good, in fact, that I'm likely to continue believing it doesn't exist, and that those who believe otherwise, especially those who believe not merely that there is something there, but that they can hand out important details about it, are — with due apologies to our friends the Mormons — talking out of their hats.

        But what if you're right, and there really is something after death? In fact, what if there actually is an anthropomorphic deity who created the universe sitting on a seat of judgment waiting for each of us to cast off this mortal coil, with an actual heaven and an actual hell awaiting the verdicts on whether they'd acknowledged Him correctly?

        In that case, I certainly wouldn't want to be the kind of Christian I see most often around here.

        Better than half of these folks believe their Creator was an idiot, a creator of the biological evolution we can see leveraging the laws of the universe into a diversity of species we can follow back over the past few billion years — who couldn't quite bring Himself to use it. Their substitute creator has fingers in the mud shaping golems needing mouth-to-mouth vivification before they could be induced to walk, talk, and breathe on their own; a cosmic bumbler so to speak. Nearly half of American Christians believe this, and believe this happened just a few thousand years ago, thumbing their collective noses at 99.9999562 percent of His creation.

        Running the numbers, I'd say there's an exit interview waiting for them that's likely to go something more than 99.9999562 percent amiss.

        "Wrong deity, dude. It's door number two for you."

        But it said right here ...

        "Did you miss the talking snake?"

        But I believed in you! Lord, Lord!

        "You never knew me; I never knew you. ... Next!"

        I believe folks should approach the aspects of a universe creator with a bit more humility than that. There are things around us so far beyond our scale of comprehension that it's nearly certain we haven't a prayer of comprehending the wants of their creator, let alone satisfying them. Live a good life. Be kind to strangers. That's enough, and it's rewarding enough by itself without looking for anything more.

        As ever, Jesse
        So, there's the post that started the derail!!! Please stop the derail. I sure don't believe that a Spirit would have human form. And we're not having a discussion about the Trinity and incarnation here! Please can we set up more threads instead of derailing threads? And can we PLEASE get back on track! And not accuse eachother of being fundies!
        If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
          I'm trying to get back on track. I just don't like being called a fundy!
          Okay, I take it back. But it certainly is true that your skepticism of natural science comes only from that wing of Christianity. Understanding and accepting the findings of science doesn't mean you have to be dogmatic about it.

          I wouldn't want you to get cornered or hamstrung by atheists or skeptics who have a better grasp of past and present reality than you. If that happens, your faith is in grave danger. It's better to prepare yourself before that happens.

          Unfortunately, that means that you'll eventually have to process the fact that you're a primate and harmonize that fact with your religion. I know that sounds scary, but many people who have done that have actually found it to be quite liberating--and not in the sinful libertine sense but in the cognitive freedom sense.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
            I believe folks should approach the aspects of a universe creator with a bit more humility than that. There are things around us so far beyond our scale of comprehension that it's nearly certain we haven't a prayer of comprehending the wants of their creator, let alone satisfying them.
            Well, if we're gonna the deist route the universe appears to be a very violent one where the strong thrive and the weak are crushed beneath their boots. Crom strikes me as a likely candidate for the deist god.

            Live a good life. Be kind to strangers. That's enough, and it's rewarding enough by itself without looking for anything more.
            The first natives Columbus ran into were very kind and hospitable to him. He took it as weakness and had them enslaved. I believe they were eventually wiped out. This is a common refrain in human history. If I were an atheist "be kind to strangers" is the type of advice I'd give to people I really, really hate.
            "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

            There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
              Can we please get back on topic? Witnessing to Atheists. It can be a pain in the rear for both parties. True or false? How do we avoid giving each other pains in the neck and other regions?
              By being real.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • But don't be an evil jerk either. So, be assertive? What's that look like? And why do some people think Christians are supposed to be passive? Are their people that think that? In respose to a different question, my faith is based on the truth of the Resurrection of Jesus, not what happened in the distant past.
                If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                Comment


                • The Resurrection of Jesus also happened in the distant past...
                  "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                  There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                  Comment


                  • There was still civilization! I'm talking before the time of Abraham! Two thousand years is nothing compared to 15 billion! Or is it 13.7 billion?
                    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                      Dear CP,

                      The point is ... it needs to be a real danger. Or at the very least, a danger that can be avoided.

                      Death is inevitable, and if there's anything after death, it's done an amazingly good job of keeping itself hidden. So good, in fact, that I'm likely to continue believing it doesn't exist, and that those who believe otherwise, especially those who believe not merely that there is something there, but that they can hand out important details about it, are — with due apologies to our friends the Mormons — talking out of their hats.

                      But what if you're right, and there really is something after death? In fact, what if there actually is an anthropomorphic deity who created the universe sitting on a seat of judgment waiting for each of us to cast off this mortal coil, with an actual heaven and an actual hell awaiting the verdicts on whether they'd acknowledged Him correctly?

                      In that case, I certainly wouldn't want to be the kind of Christian I see most often around here.

                      Better than half of these folks believe their Creator was an idiot, a creator of the biological evolution we can see leveraging the laws of the universe into a diversity of species we can follow back over the past few billion years — who couldn't quite bring Himself to use it. Their substitute creator has fingers in the mud shaping golems needing mouth-to-mouth vivification before they could be induced to walk, talk, and breathe on their own; a cosmic bumbler so to speak. Nearly half of American Christians believe this, and believe this happened just a few thousand years ago, thumbing their collective noses at 99.9999562 percent of His creation.

                      Running the numbers, I'd say there's an exit interview waiting for them that's likely to go something more than 99.9999562 percent amiss.

                      "Wrong deity, dude. It's door number two for you."

                      But it said right here ...

                      "Did you miss the talking snake?"

                      But I believed in you! Lord, Lord!

                      "You never knew me; I never knew you. ... Next!"

                      I believe folks should approach the aspects of a universe creator with a bit more humility than that. There are things around us so far beyond our scale of comprehension that it's nearly certain we haven't a prayer of comprehending the wants of their creator, let alone satisfying them. Live a good life. Be kind to strangers. That's enough, and it's rewarding enough by itself without looking for anything more.

                      As ever, Jesse
                      Well said. There's no AMEN button, or reputation, apparently. Much to my dismay.


                      Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                      Well, that was satisfying. Glad I went to the trouble of putting down my thoughts.
                      It mattered to others of us.


                      Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                      So the religion bullies her when she is at her most vulnerable. There is nothing good about that. Sorry to hear about your son-in-law. Into every life a little rain must fall.
                      I'm quoting this because it's relevant to this thread and the thoughts I'm about to put down.

                      Recently, I attended a funeral for my cousin who was murdered on New Year's Eve. No condolences necessary: I barely knew her and have no sadness regarding her passing. Anyway, at her funeral, they had an altar call of sorts, in which people were invited to "pray the prayer", at the request of her parents. To those of you who don't know the kind, it's a "everyone close your eyes and bow your heads while we all pray" thing, followed by "keep your eyes closed and those who prayed it for the first time raise your hand". Mind, I'm non-theist, and I'm curious, so you know I'm watching. Well over a dozen hands were raised. The pastor, unsurprisingly, was moved nearly to tears. He proceeds with several comments. The gist of it was, 1) talk to your pastor/priest, 2) go read the Bible (starting with Matthew), and some other misc stuff that seemed to be at odds with each other.

                      Now, I would not call this bullying. I would call it misguided or even exploitative.

                      Should you be prepared to share at any time? I would hope so. Is during a time of extreme vulnerability a good time to do that? I doubt it. Mind, I am not condemning CP here. She came to him asking the questions. That said, would you truly value a conversion in such emotional instability? Further, could you truly condone a conversion wherein the witness (in this case the pastor) assumes that the conversion is done without even knowing what the Bible says, or what the commitment entails? I hope not.
                      I'm not here anymore.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                        Should you be prepared to share at any time? I would hope so.
                        Yeah, and that's what Peter teaches.

                        Is during a time of extreme vulnerability a good time to do that? I doubt it.
                        I don't have a problem with that "making a person think", but it's only a step in the process -- and I really don't like "emotionalizing" people into a decision. I simply don't do that.

                        Mind, I am not condemning CP here. She came to him asking the questions.
                        Yup

                        That said, would you truly value a conversion in such emotional instability?
                        I think that presumes that this particular "emotional instability" would be the whole process. I see it, as I said, as simply one step to begin considering possibilities. Which is pretty much what Sharon did -- she was considering the possibility that I might be right.

                        Further, could you truly condone a conversion wherein the witness (in this case the pastor) assumes that the conversion is done without even knowing what the Bible says, or what the commitment entails? I hope not.
                        Not sure what this is about, because THIS pastor (if you're talking about me) hadn't assumed anything. If you're talking about the pastor at the funeral, which I'm guessing you are, I would definitely hope there was followup.

                        If I have to "emotionalize" (I made up that word ) somebody into accepting Christ, you're gonna have to continue to "emotionalize" them to stay.

                        Did I miss anything?
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • Yeah.. definitely hope there was followup in the funeral pastor prayer situation. What about those youth church camp where everyone gets all hyped up and the speaker gives the gospel call? Wonder how many of those kids go down just because their friend went down or the excitement? We don't know?
                          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                            Dear CP,

                            The point is ... it needs to be a real danger. Or at the very least, a danger that can be avoided.

                            Death is inevitable, and if there's anything after death, it's done an amazingly good job of keeping itself hidden. So good, in fact, that I'm likely to continue believing it doesn't exist, and that those who believe otherwise, especially those who believe not merely that there is something there, but that they can hand out important details about it, are — with due apologies to our friends the Mormons — talking out of their hats.

                            But what if you're right, and there really is something after death? In fact, what if there actually is an anthropomorphic deity who created the universe sitting on a seat of judgment waiting for each of us to cast off this mortal coil, with an actual heaven and an actual hell awaiting the verdicts on whether they'd acknowledged Him correctly?

                            In that case, I certainly wouldn't want to be the kind of Christian I see most often around here.

                            Better than half of these folks believe their Creator was an idiot, a creator of the biological evolution we can see leveraging the laws of the universe into a diversity of species we can follow back over the past few billion years — who couldn't quite bring Himself to use it. Their substitute creator has fingers in the mud shaping golems needing mouth-to-mouth vivification before they could be induced to walk, talk, and breathe on their own; a cosmic bumbler so to speak. Nearly half of American Christians believe this, and believe this happened just a few thousand years ago, thumbing their collective noses at 99.9999562 percent of His creation.

                            Running the numbers, I'd say there's an exit interview waiting for them that's likely to go something more than 99.9999562 percent amiss.

                            "Wrong deity, dude. It's door number two for you."

                            But it said right here ...

                            "Did you miss the talking snake?"

                            But I believed in you! Lord, Lord!

                            "You never knew me; I never knew you. ... Next!"

                            I believe folks should approach the aspects of a universe creator with a bit more humility than that. There are things around us so far beyond our scale of comprehension that it's nearly certain we haven't a prayer of comprehending the wants of their creator, let alone satisfying them. Live a good life. Be kind to strangers. That's enough, and it's rewarding enough by itself without looking for anything more.

                            As ever, Jesse
                            You're saying that if Christianity is true, many Christians who have the wrong belief about creation would not be acknowledged by God?

                            You know, I've seen my share of YEC's claiming that denying YEC leads to an hermeneutical slippery slope, but it really pales to what you've presented. This takes the cake.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by lao tzu
                              and if there's anything after death, it's done an amazingly good job of keeping itself hidden.
                              The majority of the world's population throughout recorded history disagrees. So much for hiddeness....

                              Originally posted by lao tzu
                              So good, in fact, that I'm likely to continue believing it doesn't exist, and that those who believe otherwise, especially those who believe not merely that there is something there, but that they can hand out important details about it, are — with due apologies to our friends the Mormons — talking out of their hats.
                              And yet your worldview is well in the minority even in the face of almost a century of state based disbelief. Something in humanity rejects the idea that a deity does not exist. Its almost as if belief in a god was properly basic.

                              Originally posted by lao tzu
                              But what if you're right, and there really is something after death? In fact, what if there actually is an anthropomorphic deity
                              John 4:24 "God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

                              Originally posted by lao tzu
                              who created the universe sitting on a seat of judgment waiting for each of us to cast off this mortal coil,
                              Not all will shuffle off this mortal coil:

                              1Thess 4:15 "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."

                              Originally posted by lao tzu
                              with an actual heaven and an actual hell awaiting the verdicts on whether they'd acknowledged Him correctly?
                              Everyone on this earth will be given to the opportunity to make Christ Lord.

                              Originally posted by lao tzu
                              In that case, I certainly wouldn't want to be the kind of Christian I see most often around here.
                              I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. - Mahatma Gandhi

                              Mark 2:17 Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

                              Luke 6:37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

                              Originally posted by lao tzu
                              Better than half of these folks believe their Creator was an idiot, a creator of the biological evolution we can see leveraging the laws of the universe into a diversity of species we can follow back over the past few billion years — who couldn't quite bring Himself to use it. Their substitute creator has fingers in the mud shaping golems needing mouth-to-mouth vivification before they could be induced to walk, talk, and breathe on their own; a cosmic bumbler so to speak. Nearly half of American Christians believe this, and believe this happened just a few thousand years ago, thumbing their collective noses at 99.9999562 percent of His creation.

                              Running the numbers, I'd say there's an exit interview waiting for them that's likely to go something more than 99.9999562 percent amiss.

                              "Wrong deity, dude. It's door number two for you."
                              1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,”

                              Evolution may be a fact, regardless, whether one believes in it or not is a grand case of missing the point.

                              Originally posted by lao tzu
                              But it said right here ...

                              "Did you miss the talking snake?"

                              But I believed in you! Lord, Lord!

                              "You never knew me; I never knew you. ... Next!"
                              Gen. 3:1 "Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made"

                              "My dear brethren, do not ever forget, when you hear the progress of lights praised, that the loveliest trick of the Devil is to persuade you that he does not exist!" - Charles Baudelaire

                              Originally posted by lao tzu
                              I believe folks should approach the aspects of a universe creator with a bit more humility than that. There are things around us so far beyond our scale of comprehension that it's nearly certain we haven't a prayer of comprehending the wants of their creator, let alone satisfying them. Live a good life. Be kind to strangers. That's enough, and it's rewarding enough by itself without looking for anything more.
                              “God loves human beings. God loves the world. Not an ideal human, but human beings as they are; not an ideal world, but the real world. What we find repulsive in their opposition to God, what we shrink back from with pain and hostility, namely, real human beings, the real world, this is for God the ground of unfathomable love.” - Dietrich Bonhoeffer
                              Last edited by Anchor; 02-08-2014, 12:38 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                I don't have a problem with that "making a person think", but it's only a step in the process -- and I really don't like "emotionalizing" people into a decision. I simply don't do that.
                                I figured you didn't.


                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                I think that presumes that this particular "emotional instability" would be the whole process. I see it, as I said, as simply one step to begin considering possibilities. Which is pretty much what Sharon did -- she was considering the possibility that I might be right.
                                For my scenario, where conversion is done at an altar call during a funeral, there is great danger that emotional instability is in fact the whole process. The pastor did attempt a very bumbling version of "hey you non-christians", but if it actually accomplished anything I have in truth witnessed a miracle. It was probably the worst attempt at that I have ever heard, and I'm not sure it ever actually found the point. I was doing well not to snort in derision. THAT would have been disastrous.


                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                Not sure what this is about, because THIS pastor (if you're talking about me) hadn't assumed anything. If you're talking about the pastor at the funeral, which I'm guessing you are, I would definitely hope there was followup.
                                I'm talking about the pastor at the funeral. He didn't know these people. He might have had some of them come to talk to him, but if so it was not in the sanctuary immediately following. His words were to the effect of "go read Matthew at least so you'll know what this is all about", and that's a very close paraphrase. That tells me that he knew there was a good chance many of those converts had no clue what they had just signed up for. If that's not irresponsible, I don't know what is.

                                In part, I blame my family. It's moronic to ask for an altar call as part of a funeral. It's worse still to be overwhelmed that someone converted while simultaneously knowing that the converts quite possibly have no idea what they're doing.


                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                If I have to "emotionalize" (I made up that word ) somebody into accepting Christ, you're gonna have to continue to "emotionalize" them to stay.
                                I would concur, except I might expand to say that they haven't actually accepted anything except a momentary placebo.


                                Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                                Yeah.. definitely hope there was followup in the funeral pastor prayer situation. What about those youth church camp where everyone gets all hyped up and the speaker gives the gospel call? Wonder how many of those kids go down just because their friend went down or the excitement? We don't know?
                                Having been among those kids, more than you might guess or hope.
                                I'm not here anymore.

                                Comment

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