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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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The Honest Atheist?
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I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostNot for me.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostYes.
Originally posted by Sparko View Postso back to my question. Can you tell which of those two waterfalls I posted was created without intelligent design? and how can you tell?
Are you saying that all natural waterfalls are evidence for ID?
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Originally posted by whag View PostSo stillbirth and mental illness were woven into the initial creation? Interesting.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by whag View PostDeduce it for me, then:The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostYou got things backwards, friend... your "Mental illness and stillbirths are natural, but controversy arises when attributing those things to God" statement is that to which I was referring as being poor deduction.
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Originally posted by whag View PostThen I could have better said it this way: Sparko sees ID in waterfalls, while I reserve the right to not see ID in waterfalls and nature because of dysteleology. Dysteleology in nature concords with an imperfect/unguided evolutionary process, so it's a reasonable interpretation in our modern times. ID isn't such a watertight argument anymore. Particularly when talking about natural waterfalls!
How bout something like sunflower seeds or the nautilus shell or Fibonacci numbers or something that at least APPEARS to have or represent "order" or "design"?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI have said all along -- ever since you brought it up -- that "waterfalls" is a really bad example.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostHow bout something like sunflower seeds
Originally posted by Cow Poke View Postor the nautilus shell or Fibonacci numbers or something that at least APPEARS to have or represent "order" or "design"?
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Originally posted by whag View PostBut then I'd have to perceive thistles as "designed." At what point does botany say to you "I'm designed!" When it tastes good?
A hurricane looks very orderly to me, just like a nautilus or a spiral galaxy.
In my opinion, another really bad example.
The problem is, the appearance of order doesn't naturally make me conclude the object was designed by a specific God.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by whag View PostYes, let's forget waterfalls.
A waterfall is simply a response to the laws of physics and nature that God wrote. God created gravity, thermodynamics, hydraulics, inertia... a waterfall simply behaves according to the laws of physics God created.
So, the DAMS to which Sparko refers simply take those principles -- laws of physics, gravity, hydraulics (or fluid dynamics) -- and capitalize on them. The "order" in a waterfall is in the fact that the water "acts" in a very predictable fashion --- you NEVER see a waterRISE, as apposed to a waterFALL (except, of course, when acted on by other predictable forces, like a waterspout) and you can COUNT on water to take the path of least resistance, just like electricity.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Bob the builder View PostHold on! I used that bit to refute scripture a few posts ago!
(Kidding, BTB)The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Bob the builder View PostMr. Poke, I haven't been here very long but I think I have a handle on your sense of humour so no worries there.
But you could be right - we COULD be mixed up. Or theists could be - or maybe it's all of us?!? How would we find out?
Let's say atheists are wrong. They, too, may have lived a life helping people (though most atheists I've encountered seem to stay angry ) but when THEY die, they're in eternal trouble!
The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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