The Honest Atheist?

[Leonhard]

Could be, but the Rom.1 passage goes on, vs.21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

It seems that all men have an innate understanding of God. At least generally.

Sounds like the Greeks to me, they knew that God existed, at least their philosophers claimed to be able to prove his existence, but they lived a life of decadence. Also I couldn't be an honest Christian and say "When I was an atheist, I really knew God existed." If it was that easy I would have become a Christian long ago.

[whag]

I think you're unnecessarily picking nit where none needs to be picked.

I'm simply trying to understand the scenario you described. Belief can only be arrived at in two ways. For some, it comes naturally, which raises interesting questions about predisposition and free will.

yeah, i even "indoctrinated" my children to be kind to others, even those who claim to be atheists. What a wicked man I am. OH, the shame of it all.

I raised my kid to be kind to others, too. That's not indoctrination. Indoctrination is when you teach a kid a certain belief system is the only correct one before he has the cognitive equipment to decide for himself. Many religions do this, not just Christianity.

You are entirely free to believe or not believe anything you want, Whag -- as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. If at some point, my children decide that's not for them, I don't love them any less.

Fair enough. =)

[Cow Poke]

I raised my kid to be kind to others, too. That's not indoctrination.

Mine is based on the Bible.

You seem to be looking for a fight, Whag -- my whole point was that I don't think you can say an atheist is "dishonest" simply because he honestly believes there is no God. I note that the only way I would see him as "dishonest" was if he DID believe in God, but claimed to be an atheist.

How bout practicing some of that "kindness" you claimed you taught your kids. Or is this it? It's how I started my entrance to this thread.

[seer]

Sounds like the Greeks to me, they knew that God existed, at least their philosophers claimed to be able to prove his existence, but they lived a life of decadence. Also I couldn't be an honest Christian and say "When I was an atheist, I really knew God existed." If it was that easy I would have become a Christian long ago.

Hello Leonhard, yes I have head this explanation - it may be plausible. But I also think it is plausible that sin can cause irrationality, or self-deception.

[whag]

Mine is based on the Bible.

You seem to be looking for a fight, Whag -- my whole point was that I don't think you can say an atheist is "dishonest" simply because he honestly believes there is no God. I note that the only way I would see him as "dishonest" was if he DID believe in God, but claimed to be an atheist.

How bout practicing some of that "kindness" you claimed you taught your kids. Or is this it? It's how I started my entrance to this thread.

If my questions came off as unkind, I apologize. I'm struggling to communicate with some fundamentalist family members at the moment. Belief and how it comes really interests me.

[Cow Poke]

Lookie here, Whag....

My first reaction is that the scriptures you posted clearly state that the atheist would be WRONG, and without excuse in being wrong, but I don't think that necessarily makes him dishonest. If he sincerely does not believe God exists, and states that, he may be accused of ignorance, but not necessarily dishonesty. If he believed in God and stated otherwise, that would obviously be dishonest.

I clearly state that I don't think an atheist is necessarily dishonest. The EXCEPTION would be if he lied about it, "believing in God and stating otherwise", for which you felt it necessary to snit "then he wouldn't be an atheist". Yeah, he'd be a LIAR. Which is DISHONEST.

I have friends who are atheists, and I freely admit that some of them "act better" than a lot my Christian friends. On the other hand, there are atheists who seem to feel obligated to jump on anything a Christians says just to argue.

[Cow Poke]

If my questions came off as unkind, I apologize.

Apology accepted -- and my previous post was made before I saw this, and I was just poking you. I really don't have an axe to grind with you, Whag.

I'm struggling to communicate with some fundamentalist family members at the moment. Belief and how it comes really interests me.

It might help to consider the possibility that some of us Christians truly believe the Bible is the Word of God, and that Christ died for our sins. It would be tragic not to share this with our children and friends. You show your bias by calling this "indoctrination", as opposed to passing on our sincerely held religious beliefs.

I really don't want to be at war with you, Whag, because I have a feeling that, in real life, you're probably a pretty nice guy. Until I find otherwise, I'd like to treat you with respect and civility, and see that reciprocated.

[seer]

Belief and how it comes really interests me.

Now that is the million dollar question. Back in the spring of 1990 I was minding my own business, but working with this fundy that kept quoting the bible. The last thing I wanted to be was a Christian. A Buddhist maybe (I lived in the far east for a year and had a lot of respect for Buddhism), but a Christian NEVER! On August 19th of that year I received Christ as my Lord and Savior-and I'm still not sure why, except for the first time in my life God became more real to me than reality itself. The event was not much different in kind to the experience of CS Lewis:

"You must picture me alone in that room in Magdalen College, Oxford, night after night, feeling, whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. That which I greatly feared had at last come upon me. In the Trinity Term of 1929 I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all England."

[seasanctuary]

Romans 1 shouldn't be taken too literally since that would imply anyone who isn't worshiping God properly is incapable of things like love and mercy.

[seer]

Romans 1 shouldn't be taken too literally since that would imply anyone who isn't worshiping God properly is incapable of things like love and mercy.

Or maybe the kind, or degree, of love and mercy that God requires?

[seasanctuary]

Or maybe the kind, or degree, of love and mercy that God requires?

Right, something that doesn't take "they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy" too literally. Like that.

[David Hayward]

In light of certain scriptures (Psalm 93 & Romans 1) can there be an honest atheist, or do they all suppress the truth in wickedness?

By serendipity I have just come across a quote by Stanley Fish (quote found here, or read Fish direct at "God Talk, Part 2"), that: "No believer will find his faith shaken by evidence that is evidence only in the light of assumptions he does not share and considers flatly wrong."

The original context -- Fish is Christian -- is that atheists like Dawkins are wasting their time trying to convert Christians to the atheist point of view by presenting what is only 'evidence' if one is already an atheist; but it reverses, and functions also as an argument why trying to convert the atheist based on 'evidence' acceptable only to the Christian and which the atheist cannot conceive as being 'good evidence' will be a waste of time.

[Doug Shaver]

In light of certain scriptures can there be an honest atheist, or do they all suppress the truth in wickedness?

That depends on how your dogma says scripture should be interpreted.

[Doug Shaver]

It seems that all men have an innate understanding of God. At least generally.

That depends. If you equate understanding with belief, then I don't understand God, although I once believed in him.

[robrecht]

I agree with Cow Poke and seasanctuary and also think that most atheists are very honest about their beliefs and lack of religious beliefs. Paul does seem to be speaking of intentional dishonesty, of which believers too are quite capable as well.