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The Honest Atheist?

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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    How did they create that dam and waterfalls?




    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      Not for me.
      So stillbirth and mental illness were woven into the initial creation? Interesting.



      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      Yes.
      Good, I didn't know you were a theistic evolutionist.


      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      so back to my question. Can you tell which of those two waterfalls I posted was created without intelligent design? and how can you tell?
      The 2nd waterfall could have been created by diverting water, which human beings have done since they invented irrigation. No one said human beings can't replicate natural-looking waterfalls.

      Are you saying that all natural waterfalls are evidence for ID?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by whag View Post
        So stillbirth and mental illness were woven into the initial creation? Interesting.
        Your powers of deduction are profoundly lacking.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          Your powers of deduction are profoundly lacking.
          Deduce it for me, then:

          Originally posted by whag
          Mental illness and stillbirths are natural, but controversy arises when attributing those things to God.
          Originally posted by Sparko
          Not for me.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by whag View Post
            Deduce it for me, then:
            You got things backwards, friend... your "Mental illness and stillbirths are natural, but controversy arises when attributing those things to God" statement is that to which I was referring as being poor deduction.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              You got things backwards, friend... your "Mental illness and stillbirths are natural, but controversy arises when attributing those things to God" statement is that to which I was referring as being poor deduction.
              Then I could have better said it this way: Sparko sees ID in waterfalls, while I reserve the right to not see ID in waterfalls and nature because of dysteleology. Dysteleology in nature concords with an imperfect/unguided evolutionary process, so it's a reasonable interpretation in our modern times. ID isn't such a watertight argument anymore. Particularly when talking about natural waterfalls!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by whag View Post
                Then I could have better said it this way: Sparko sees ID in waterfalls, while I reserve the right to not see ID in waterfalls and nature because of dysteleology. Dysteleology in nature concords with an imperfect/unguided evolutionary process, so it's a reasonable interpretation in our modern times. ID isn't such a watertight argument anymore. Particularly when talking about natural waterfalls!
                I have said all along -- ever since you brought it up -- that "waterfalls" is a really bad example.

                How bout something like sunflower seeds or the nautilus shell or Fibonacci numbers or something that at least APPEARS to have or represent "order" or "design"?
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  I have said all along -- ever since you brought it up -- that "waterfalls" is a really bad example.
                  Sorry, but I wouldn't have stayed on waterfalls had Sparko not entered the discussion. Yes, let's forget waterfalls.

                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  How bout something like sunflower seeds
                  But then I'd have to perceive thistles as "designed." At what point does botany say to you "I'm designed!" When it tastes good?


                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  or the nautilus shell or Fibonacci numbers or something that at least APPEARS to have or represent "order" or "design"?
                  A hurricane looks very orderly to me, just like a nautilus or a spiral galaxy. The problem is, the appearance of order doesn't naturally make me conclude the object was designed by a specific God.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by whag View Post
                    But then I'd have to perceive thistles as "designed." At what point does botany say to you "I'm designed!" When it tastes good?
                    In the Creation story, everything was perfect -- because of the fall of man - original sin - bad things happened. Thistles were actually an example.

                    A hurricane looks very orderly to me, just like a nautilus or a spiral galaxy.
                    WOW... that's a stretch! Have you ever actually WATCHED a hurricane or tornado? They can be rather wobbly and unpredictable. Now, if they were tall and straight, and moved in a straight line and maintained a specific distance and wind force.... but they're rather random, and subject to outside conditions.

                    In my opinion, another really bad example.

                    The problem is, the appearance of order doesn't naturally make me conclude the object was designed by a specific God.
                    Because you're hardheaded! Romans 1:20 allows for the fact that you will refuse to acknowledge the author, and simply states you have no excuse, because the evidence is there for those who will consider it.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by whag View Post
                      Yes, let's forget waterfalls.
                      Well, yeah, but YOU brought them up!

                      A waterfall is simply a response to the laws of physics and nature that God wrote. God created gravity, thermodynamics, hydraulics, inertia... a waterfall simply behaves according to the laws of physics God created.

                      So, the DAMS to which Sparko refers simply take those principles -- laws of physics, gravity, hydraulics (or fluid dynamics) -- and capitalize on them. The "order" in a waterfall is in the fact that the water "acts" in a very predictable fashion --- you NEVER see a waterRISE, as apposed to a waterFALL (except, of course, when acted on by other predictable forces, like a waterspout) and you can COUNT on water to take the path of least resistance, just like electricity.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        Romans 1:20 allows for the fact that you will refuse to acknowledge the author, and simply states you have no excuse, because the evidence is there for those who will consider it.
                        Hold on! I used that bit to refute scripture a few posts ago!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Bob the builder View Post
                          Hold on! I used that bit to refute scripture a few posts ago!
                          Maybe I got my atheists mixed up! But, then again, aren't ALL atheists mixed up?

                          (Kidding, BTB)
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • Mr. Poke, I haven't been here very long but I think I have a handle on your sense of humour so no worries there.

                            But you could be right - we COULD be mixed up. Or theists could be - or maybe it's all of us?!? How would we find out?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Bob the builder View Post
                              Mr. Poke, I haven't been here very long but I think I have a handle on your sense of humour so no worries there.

                              But you could be right - we COULD be mixed up. Or theists could be - or maybe it's all of us?!? How would we find out?
                              Let's say I'm wrong. There's no God, Christ never came to earth, was not really crucified (or maybe He did and was, but He wasn't the Son of God, so it was pointless) and did not really rise again, and the Bible is a fairy tale. In that case, I have lived a good life, helping lots of people, steering clear of lots of wrong stuff, and I die, and it's all over. No regrets.

                              Let's say atheists are wrong. They, too, may have lived a life helping people (though most atheists I've encountered seem to stay angry ) but when THEY die, they're in eternal trouble!

                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                No, it looks like you're the hardhead.
                                Yup, but I admit it.

                                Here you are, a grown man
                                AM NOT, and you can't prove it!

                                Moderated By: CP

                                DRAT DRAT DRAT... I DID IT AGAIN!!!! I have accidentally used my MOD POWERS to destroy Whag's post! I HATE it when I do that, but this is the first time in AGES (or at least today) I've done this!!!!

                                I am truly sorry, Whag! My error!

                                ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
                                Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

                                Last edited by Cow Poke; 09-25-2014, 10:15 AM.

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