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The Infinitely lazy God?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Like seer, my agreement with Maxvel ends in the view that we are all theists.

    You do not get anywhere in a dialogue with accusations of 'Ignorant drivel,' when your own argument is logically egocentric and weak.

    In reality it is worse then weak to justify the existence of God, because we are alive.

    As usual your reading comprehension fails you, and you misunderstand me, and misrepresent my position. Please quote me accurately, and in context.


    ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Darth Ovious View Post
      Quick question, why are you a member of the Baha'i faith and not an atheist? As long as I can remember you always defend the atheist positions over theistic ones. Even above you defend first floor over something that Maxvel didn't do.
      Defending firstfloor over Maxvel is easy, and not because one is atheist and one is theist. The atheist position is indeed viable logically, because it addresses the universal, where the arguments form the perspective of ancient world views, such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam fail to do. Supporting the better argument to me is obvious, especially when the dark side uses vindictive name calling and bad arguments. Arguing for atheism/strong agnosticism does not mean I believe in it.

      I am a Baha'i, because I believe in the Baha'i Faith.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        Aquinas does not represent modern arguments for the existence of God. I consider them too anthropomorphic and self justified arguments and mostly too circular assuming God exists in the beginning.
        Then please cite Aquinas' Fifth Way, and show where it is circular, and assumes God exists in the beginning.
        ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          Defending firstfloor over Maxvel is easy, and not because one is atheist and one is theist. The atheist position is indeed viable logically, because it addresses the universal, where the arguments form the perspective of ancient world views, such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam fail to do. Supporting the better argument to me is obvious, especially when the dark side uses vindictive name calling and bad arguments. Arguing for atheism/strong agnosticism does not mean I believe in it.

          I am a Baha'i, because I believe in the Baha'i Faith.

          You're the kind of 'theist' who never argues for God, and the kind of Baha'i who doesn't affirm any of the actual core teachings of the Baha'i faith. It's OK, Frank, we understand you.



          I called Firstfloor ignorant, because his first paragraph was ignorant.

          Originally posted by Firstfloor
          If things must be created and if God is the creator of things and He is a thing then He also was created and His creator was created, and so on. In Religio-think the infinite regression is avoided by supposing that God is timeless or outside time or has existed forever or something of that sort. The details are never explained and you are just supposed to be stupid enough to believe that the person saying such a thing knows something that you don’t.

          The bolded is factually untrue - even if you don't accept them, there are explanations. Either firstfloor is being deliberately obtuse - to troll or deceive; or he is very ignorant. I chose the less damaging to firstfloor of the two choices.

          The underlined is insulting to people who do believe - so I replied in the tone that firstfloor set for this thread.

          Now let's see you cite Aquinas' Fifth Way, and show how 'it is circular and assumes God's existence from the beginning'.
          ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            Defending firstfloor over Maxvel is easy, and not because one is atheist and one is theist. The atheist position is indeed viable logically, because it addresses the universal, where the arguments form the perspective of ancient world views, such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam fail to do. Supporting the better argument to me is obvious, especially when the dark side uses vindictive name calling and bad arguments. Arguing for atheism/strong agnosticism does not mean I believe in it.
            Most Christians I see are actually pushovers and it's atheists that use the name calling to a higher degree. This board is different in that respects but I don't see why theists should lie down and be pushovers for the anti-theists. I have no problem with atheists as such it's anti-theists I have a problem with.

            I am a Baha'i, because I believe in the Baha'i Faith.
            Would be nice if you could defend it at some point.

            I have respect for theists. My wife is a Buddhist and I also respect her views. I do not respect the anti-theists who come to these kinds of boards with only an interest in disruption.
            Last edited by Darth Ovious; 05-03-2015, 09:38 AM. Reason: Grammar
            “I didn’t go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of Port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don’t recommend Christianity.” - C.S. Lewis

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
              If things must be created and if God is the creator of things and He is a thing then He also was created and His creator was created, and so on. In Religio-think the infinite regression is avoided by supposing that God is timeless or outside time or has existed forever or something of that sort. The details are never explained and you are just supposed to be stupid enough to believe that the person saying such a thing knows something that you don’t. But let’s suppose that there was God-time before He made the world and God inhabited that ‘space’ for all possible God-times. If that space is not infinite then God is not infinite and He must have been created. If that space is infinite then God is infinitely lazy. OR, this world and you in particular is the infinitely least important thing on His agenda.

              What I notice about the world is that God, at the very best, is not a hard worker. [Christians will excuse infinite God-idleness] What are we supposed to be praising Him for exactly?
              Interestingly enough the bolded part is aimed towards all theists. Even those of the Baha'i faith.

              It's my position that I don't see why Shunyadragon should have to roll over and accept this sort of abuse. However Shunyadragon seems to think that this statement is perfectly fine.
              “I didn’t go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of Port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don’t recommend Christianity.” - C.S. Lewis

              Comment


              • #22
                What I am confident about is that really we are all in the same basic state of ignorance. But there are people who either pretend to or actually believe they know a greater truth and are terribly pleased with themselves for having discovered it. To impress the others or shame their enemies, some award themselves the special status of ‘saved’ or followers of the one true God. The risk is that this so-called greater truth or the attitude that comes with the belief is actually toxic and there are many examples to indicate that this might be the case.

                Purity was once an important requisite in religious observance. It was so difficult to achieve the appropriate degree of purity that it was left to specialists (Bishops for example) to approach God on behalf of the people. In the West, I think this sense of distance from God has been unfortunately lost. Why is it that we dare to talk to God before supper? Is that not incredibly presumptuous? How would it be if we were to really humble ourselves and purify our thoughts about God before contemplating God, our human condition, matters of purpose, destiny and so on? Of what use is my creed in that situation?
                Last edited by firstfloor; 05-03-2015, 09:59 AM.
                “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                “not all there” - you know who you are

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                  What I am confident about is that really we are all in the same basic state of ignorance. But there are people who either pretend to or actually believe they know a greater truth and are terribly pleased with themselves for having discovered it. To impress the others or shame their enemies, some award themselves the special status of ‘saved’ or followers of the one true God. The risk is that this so-called greater truth or the attitude that comes with the belief is actually toxic and there are many examples to indicate that this might be the case.

                  Purity was once an important requisite in religious observance. It was so difficult to achieve the appropriate degree of purity that it was left to specialists (Bishops for example) to approach God on behalf of the people. In the West, I think this sense of distance from God has been unfortunately lost. Why is it that we dare to talk to God before supper? Is that not incredibly presumptuous? How would it be if we were to really humble ourselves and purify our thoughts about God before contemplating God, our human condition, matters of purpose, destiny and so on? Of what use is my creed in that situation?
                  That almost makes a lot of sense... ...a pity you lump everyone in the same boat, though.
                  ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                    I called Firstfloor ignorant, because his first paragraph was ignorant.
                    ["The details are never explained"] What you may be referring to is rationalization in the sense of making excuses (it is what apologetics does). It is the avoidance of explanation. One of the reasons that religious movements are often anti-education is that they don’t want to compete with real explanations, because they can’t. [The Devil made use of Eve’s curiosity.]
                    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                    “not all there” - you know who you are

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      If this is the best you have to offer, your God is in trouble. Most people in the world live, die and suffer in poor situations and circumstances they have no control over. Actually by the evidence nature takes care of things from beginning to endings without any apparent Divine intervention.
                      So Shuny, obviously if this is your standard, your god cares nothing for mankind.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                        ["The details are never explained"] What you may be referring to is rationalization in the sense of making excuses (it is what apologetics does). It is the avoidance of explanation. One of the reasons that religious movements are often anti-education is that they don’t want to compete with real explanations, because they can’t. [The Devil made use of Eve’s curiosity.]

                        ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Darth Ovious View Post
                          Interestingly enough the bolded part is aimed towards all theists. Even those of the Baha'i faith.

                          It's my position that I don't see why Shunyadragon should have to roll over and accept this sort of abuse. However Shunyadragon seems to think that this statement is perfectly fine.
                          That is because Shuny is a functional atheist, who only gives lip service to the Baha'i faith.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            That is because Shuny is a functional atheist, who only gives lip service to the Baha'i faith.
                            I have to say that was always the impression I got. I don't know his actions in real life so I can't comment on those but his posts here always left me confused afterwards. When talking ot him I always felt like I was talking to an atheist.
                            “I didn’t go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of Port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don’t recommend Christianity.” - C.S. Lewis

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                              ["The details are never explained"] What you may be referring to is rationalization in the sense of making excuses (it is what apologetics does). It is the avoidance of explanation. One of the reasons that religious movements are often anti-education is that they don’t want to compete with real explanations, because they can’t. [The Devil made use of Eve’s curiosity.]
                              I think you are pre-supposing here that explanations by Christians cannot be real explanations.

                              Apart from young earth creationism I don't agree with that assessment at all. I am a theistic evolutionist and YEC wasn't a movement until after the English interpretation of the Bible came about in the 1600's. So my religion functioned for over 1600 years without it.
                              “I didn’t go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of Port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don’t recommend Christianity.” - C.S. Lewis

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                                As usual your reading comprehension fails you, and you misunderstand me, and misrepresent my position. Please quote me accurately, and in context.


                                My comprehension is fine. In context you described the first floor as 'Ignorant drivel,' and expected second hand references to do the arguing for you, which is equivalent to arguing by web link.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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