Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Moral Realism?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Moral Realism?

    Recently a new member here at TWEB attack biblical ethics as being subjective, subjective to God. Which makes sense, but God's law would still be objective to mankind. He suggested or inferred that moral realism was preferable because it posed that objective moral facts actually exist;

    Here is a definition that I think is correct:

    Moral Realism (or Moral Objectivism) is the meta-ethical view that there exist such things as moral facts and moral values, and that these are objective and independent of our perception of them or our beliefs, feelings or other attitudes towards them. Therefore, moral judgments describe moral facts, which are as certain in their own way as mathematical facts.
    The questions are, where do these moral facts exist? And how are we obligated to them if they do exist?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  • #2
    I haven't heard of this idea prior to reading remarks about it in Apologetics here. It sounds dubious to me. I'd like to find out what some of these "objective moral "facts" are.
    Middle-of-the-road swing voter. Feel free to sway my opinion.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Yttrium View Post
      I haven't heard of this idea prior to reading remarks about it in Apologetics here. It sounds dubious to me. I'd like to find out what some of these "objective moral "facts" are.
      Me too.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #4
        Well, Wikipedia has a page on it. It doesn't seem to get into any of those "facts", unfortunately.

        I came across this line on the page: "Another advantage of moral realism is its capacity to resolve moral disagreements: If two moral beliefs contradict one another, realism says that they cannot both be right, and therefore everyone involved ought to be seeking out the right answer to resolve the disagreement." This breaks Moral Relativism, as far as I'm concerned. I see people with conflicting moral values, who both can subjectively justify themselves to be right, and no resolution can be found between the two; and I understand both points, and I see no objective solution. An obvious example (to me) is the abortion issue.
        Middle-of-the-road swing voter. Feel free to sway my opinion.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          Recently a new member here at TWEB attack biblical ethics as being subjective, subjective to God. Which makes sense, but God's law would still be objective to mankind.
          Actually, no, it doesn't make sense to say ethics is subjective God.

          Originally posted by seer View Post
          He suggested or inferred that moral realism was preferable because it posed that objective moral facts actually exist
          Theism logically entails moral realism, so I don't see how it could possibly by an alternative to theism. Maybe he is referring to moral platonism; the idea that moral facts exist as actual objects? If so, then that is a viewpoint that isn't preferable to theism at all.

          Originally posted by seer View Post
          The questions are, where do these moral facts exist? And how are we obligated to them if they do exist?
          The irony is that, if moral platonism is true, then they either exist as abstract objects, in the mind's of humans, or not at all. Whereas, in theism, God is the ontological source of moral facts.
          My Amazon Author page: https://www.amazon.com/-/e/B0719RS8BK

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Rational Gaze View Post
            Actually, no, it doesn't make sense to say ethics is subjective God.
            Well that was his point, I don't have a real problem with it, he he would have to flesh out his reasons.


            Theism logically entails moral realism, so I don't see how it could possibly by an alternative to theism. Maybe he is referring to moral platonism; the idea that moral facts exist as actual objects? If so, then that is a viewpoint that isn't preferable to theism at all.
            Some do say that moral realism can be traced back to Plato.


            The irony is that, if moral platonism is true, then they either exist as abstract objects, in the mind's of humans, or not at all. Whereas, in theism, God is the ontological source of moral facts.
            And I don't see how we would be, in the least, obligated, to follow these moral facts - even if we knew them.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              ... where do these moral facts exist?
              They don’t. God (assuming He exists) is a moral agent just like we are. Moral facts or standards do not exist. The reason you would refer to God for advice in moral matters is only if you thought he was qualified because of His greater experience and not because he embodies goodness or some such thing. A lot of God worshipers get this wrong for some reason and say daft things like ‘God is love’.
              “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
              “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
              “not all there” - you know who you are

              Comment


              • #8
                I suppose one could argue that God's law expresses moral realism in that it expresses the relationship between things and a proper order for them, and as the only omnipotent being would be the one to best express what that morality would look like? e.g. People are made in God's image and therefore are treated as something special, i.e. to be loved.

                For God to request something to be otherwise would be to undermine the nature and plan for creation and thus impose on Him a morality contrary to what He would request of us? E.g. honesty, love, etc.
                Last edited by Ana Dragule; 04-27-2015, 06:03 PM.
                I am become death...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Some do say that moral realism can be traced back to Plato.
                  Moral realism is the position that there are moral facts. Platonist philosophy is merely one form of moral realism. Theism is another. In both, moral statements can be true.

                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  And I don't see how we would be, in the least, obligated, to follow these moral facts - even if we knew them.
                  Which is precisely why theism is preferable to platonism. Platonism does not adequately provide an answer to moral epistemology, only moral ontology. Whereas theism provides a satisfactory account of moral ontology and moral epistemology.
                  My Amazon Author page: https://www.amazon.com/-/e/B0719RS8BK

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                    They don’t. God (assuming He exists) is a moral agent just like we are. Moral facts or standards do not exist. The reason you would refer to God for advice in moral matters is only if you thought he was qualified because of His greater experience and not because he embodies goodness or some such thing. A lot of God worshipers get this wrong for some reason and say daft things like ‘God is love’.
                    You are simply begging the question here. In theism, God is the ontological basis for moral truths. Simply claiming that they don't exist is question begging.
                    My Amazon Author page: https://www.amazon.com/-/e/B0719RS8BK

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Rational Gaze View Post
                      Which is precisely why theism is preferable to platonism. Platonism does not adequately provide an answer to moral epistemology, only moral ontology. Whereas theism provides a satisfactory account of moral ontology and moral epistemology.
                      Well that is my question, in a godless universe, how can moral facts exist? Where do they exist?
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Moral realism is simply a way of saying we need to update the useless morality of Scripture. It is false.
                        Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Rational Gaze View Post
                          In theism, God is the ontological basis for moral truths.
                          If you don’t understand God you can’t use Him to explain anything else. “How great is God—beyond our understanding!” What you are doing here is just saying what you want to be true – wishful thinking.
                          “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                          “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                          “not all there” - you know who you are

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Recently a new member here at TWEB attack biblical ethics as being subjective, subjective to God. Which makes sense, but God's law would still be objective to mankind. He suggested or inferred that moral realism was preferable because it posed that objective moral facts actually exist;

                            Here is a definition that I think is correct:



                            The questions are, where do these moral facts exist? And how are we obligated to them if they do exist?
                            The problem with Moral Realism remains that morals and ethics are human social attributes, and not God's Law. Morals and ethics are not subjective nor objective in and of themselves, and there are no moral facts (?). Morals and Ethics may or may not be based on God's Law.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                              If you don’t understand God you can’t use Him to explain anything else. “How great is God—beyond our understanding!” What you are doing here is just saying what you want to be true – wishful thinking.
                              More question begging.
                              My Amazon Author page: https://www.amazon.com/-/e/B0719RS8BK

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by lee_merrill, 10-30-2020, 09:01 PM
                              28 responses
                              115 views
                              2 likes
                              Last Post thormas
                              by thormas
                               
                              Started by lee_merrill, 10-24-2020, 07:58 PM
                              13 responses
                              62 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Gondwanaland  
                              Started by Whateverman, 07-26-2020, 11:01 AM
                              330 responses
                              6,601 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Electric Skeptic  
                              Started by shunyadragon, 09-09-2016, 03:27 PM
                              1,238 responses
                              54,945 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post thormas
                              by thormas
                               
                              Working...
                              X