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My personal experience of evangelism

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  • Catholicity
    replied
    Mind you Cp the only one who will actually bring anyone back is God. Pman needs to do the searching of which I believe he is and God needs to make the calling you know the one you just can't ignore. BTW Pman I read Nick's post in deeper waters on how he feels about the idea of Christianity as a relationship. Read it. Its compelling and spoke very loudly to me about something that weighed heavily on me as a teenager.

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  • Darth Executor
    replied
    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
    Reminds me of a conversation with my increasingly-more-conservative Christian parents a year or so ago. They'd had a speaker at their church who had started an organisation working with poor people who were in debt, helping them sort out their finances. "That's the sort of Christianity you'd approve-of right?" they said to me, and indeed it was, as they made what the guy was doing sound like a really great idea that was truly making a meaningful impact to people's lives.

    My response was along the lines of "that sounds wonderful, could it be scaled-up to happen throughout the country? You could probably get government funding for that sort of thing" but I suspected that this all sounded too-good to be true, because call me a skeptic, but over the years I've been sufficiently disillusioned about Christians and them helping people. Sure enough, at Christmas I overheard my parents telling the same story to their religious relatives and they included a lot more bits to the story than what they'd told me, and sure enough, the motivations of the guy doing this were primarily about evangelism. Helping poor people out of debt was apparently a useful tool for winning souls for Christ.
    Note how Starlight's Christian parents seek moral approval from their godless dirtbag son, as if Starlight's morality is anything more than degenerate abomination. They should be on their knees begging the rest of us forgiveness for hoisting this jackass on us.

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    Last edited by DesertBerean; 05-01-2015, 12:31 PM.

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  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
    What I mean is that although some Christians are attractive exemplars of their faith, I find them to be no more numerous than exemplary Buddhists, atheists, Hindus, and so on. I think it has more to do with spiritual development (see my other thread about this) than it does to the actual content of any particular faith.

    I hope you notice that all of this is framed in terms of my personal experience and opinion and I'm not asserting any universal truths here.
    Gotcha. Thanks.

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  • pancreasman
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    That would be the "them", as opposed to the "us", as in me, eh? (I'm kidding, Pman - for reasons unbeknownst to me, I really like you. )



    That must be Aussie - can you parse it for me?
    What I mean is that although some Christians are attractive exemplars of their faith, I find them to be no more numerous than exemplary Buddhists, atheists, Hindus, and so on. I think it has more to do with spiritual development (see my other thread about this) than it does to the actual content of any particular faith.

    I hope you notice that all of this is framed in terms of my personal experience and opinion and I'm not asserting any universal truths here.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
    They brought me closer than the bossy types. I can't be a Christian because of what I do and don't believe, but some people confirm for me at least that being a Christian with integrity and depth is possible.
    That would be the "them", as opposed to the "us", as in me, eh? (I'm kidding, Pman - for reasons unbeknownst to me, I really like you. )

    Mind you so is not being a Christian.
    That must be Aussie - can you parse it for me?

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  • pancreasman
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Yet, interestingly enough, these "good character and depth" Christians don't seem to have brought you back to the faith.



    And my thread was not an 'attack' on Sam.
    They brought me closer than the bossy types. I can't be a Christian because of what I do and don't believe, but some people confirm for me at least that being a Christian with integrity and depth is possible. Mind you so is not being a Christian.

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  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
    As CP and others have correctly pointed out, there is bad evangelism and good evangelism. My experience was more of the 'bad' type. However, in my life there have been a few times when I have been deeply impressed by the good character and depth of some Christians. These people have made Christianity attractive without telling me I'm a sinner and that I need Jesus. Through their actions they have been more effective evangelisers than any 'soul winners'.
    Yet, interestingly enough, these "good character and depth" Christians don't seem to have brought you back to the faith.

    And CP, this thread is not an 'attack' on you, but rather my attempt to show why I find evangelism problematic. There have been some good contributions from Christian and non-Christian alike.
    And my thread was not an 'attack' on Sam.

    Leave a comment:


  • pancreasman
    replied
    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    So to avoid this you post . . . v
    As CP and others have correctly pointed out, there is bad evangelism and good evangelism. My experience was more of the 'bad' type. However, in my life there have been a few times when I have been deeply impressed by the good character and depth of some Christians. These people have made Christianity attractive without telling me I'm a sinner and that I need Jesus. Through their actions they have been more effective evangelisers than any 'soul winners'.

    And CP, this thread is not an 'attack' on you, but rather my attempt to show why I find evangelism problematic. There have been some good contributions from Christian and non-Christian alike.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jedidiah
    replied
    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
    Not true. The message that everyone benefits if they love one another is not in the least problematic for atheists. It is not exclusively a Christian message.
    Abigail wrote. "Jesus who in turn teaches us how to love others...." You obviously have failed to learn the "how" since you never fail to not show love in your posts. This aside from your dishonesty.

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  • Jedidiah
    replied
    Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
    This is NOT a thread I'd like to see resolve along familiar lines of us vs them.
    So to avoid this you post . . . v

    Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
    Subtitled: 'And why I don't like it.'

    [snip]

    I despise evangelism. To me it is a sign of dishonesty and manipulation. It's almost always simple minded. It demeans the Other, because it so hardly ever listens to the life experience the other person has.

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  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Since this thread was started as a thinly veiled attack on ME (I'm kidding, Pman - kinda) I'll add something else.

    I think the REAL problem is that, in my own humble but accurate opinion, the MAIN element that is missing in "bad evangelism" is the Holy Spirit.

    When the Holy Spirit is truly at work, it doesn't matter if the evangelistic effort is "subtle" or, as Paul preferred - BOLD. Even "bad evangelism" works when the Holy Spirit is involved.

    Case in point -

    In the early 70's, I was training some of our young people at our Church in evangelism the way I learned it. Cathy was a young lady who had a heart for Jesus. We "practiced" "door to door evangelism", and I taught her how to knock on the door, introduce us, get us invited in, introduce the "Four Spiritual Laws" booklet, and lead the "prospect" through the book to the point where you ask them if they would like to pray.

    We practiced it over and over.

    Then we "hit the door". It went south. Cathy was nervous. When the woman answered the door, Cathy didn't introduce us, didn't get us invited into the house --- she just buried her nose in the booklet and read, monotone, through the entire booklet, us on the porch outside, the woman standing inside on the other side of the closed screen door.

    I was embarrassed. I kept waiting for Cathy to stop reading long enough for me to "save the day". Cathy never stopped. Even when she got to the question - "would you like to pray to ask Jesus into your heart", it was a nervous monotone delivery.

    But then, to my utter surprise, the woman on the other side of the door began sobbing, and said, "yes, I would". She opened the door and invited us in, we talked for a few minutes, and she prayed to receive Jesus as Lord.

    This was yet another lesson for me. It's not the booklet or pamphlet or "program" - it was obviously the power of the Holy Spirit.

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  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by whag View Post
    The problem is the obligatory aspect of the gospel that is easily misunderstood. If you merely let your good works be the goal and barely mention the tropes of Christianity at all, is that ultimately a help or a hindrance to the kingdom? I'd wager that this approach is more demonstrative of faith then one with an explicit pedagogical end goal, which casts suspicion on your motive just like any explicit proselytic goal by ANY religion, from Scientology to Mormonism, casts suspicion. It would seem God would be more honoring of the subtle approach.
    Yeah, note that I was writing my "Coffee Tent" post before I saw this one. I don't think we could have been any more subtle - we were just handing out free coffee, not expecting anything other than maybe helping people stay awake to arrive safely at their destination.

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  • shunyadragon
    replied
    Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
    The kind of Christianity you left is the kind I personally ran away from..... Really far away from. I wrote about some of my experience in a private journal. I left that part of the church and I won't go back. I did become Catholic but for personal reasons I am not there either. I am a Christian but far from evangelical.
    Careful words like 'religion,' proselytizing,' and 'evangelical' are not always bad, but like other words they can be used as stones as scapegoats to throw at people who believe differently, or as generalizing terms for the behavior or even other beliefs that offend us.

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  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Probably one of the most interesting "evangelistic efforts" we were involved in didn't even start out as an evangelist effort at all.

    Our Church was on a main highway, and I noticed that, on the Holidays, there was nearly bumper to bumper high speed traffic, people traveling from Houston to Waco. I remembered when I was a kid that local CB clubs ("REACT"?) would set up rest stops on the side of the road and offer free coffee.

    I proposed that to our Church. We bought a 10x20 awning, and set it up out in front of the Church, with signs 1 and 2 miles down the road announcing "FREE COFFEE". We would sit out there and "fellowship" until somebody would pull over for a cup of coffee, or just to stretch their legs in a safe environment. We figured "if it works, fine, if not, no big loss".

    It worked. We were amazed at how many people stopped. Then we were REALLY amazed at how much "ministry" took place. And evangelism. Not on purpose, but it took place.

    One young man had stopped, and in the process of talking to him, he revealed that he didn't have a driver's license - he had stolen the family car and was running away from home. We talked with him, and prayed with him, and I asked him what HE thought his biggest problem was. He broke into tears, and blurted out "I think I need Jesus". That certainly was NOT the purpose of "Coffee Tent".

    Our Church had been fairly small, but was growing, mostly from unchurched people coming to know Jesus, or at least, coming to investigate. One day, an older couple visited our Church, and after the Service, they came and told me they wanted to "join up". I had never seen them before, but they told me they had driven by on holidays and had seen our people out there serving coffee to travelers, and they said, "that's the kind of Church we want to join". They were workers. I mean - anything we needed done, any projects we had going on, they were there, supporting 100% That was not the purpose of "Coffee Tent".

    In the 5 years we did this, over two dozen people prayed with us at our Coffee Tent (yeah, I'm a horrible Christian because I mentioned numbers ) to receive Jesus as Savior. We didn't push them - that wasn't even our intent. That was not the purpose of "Coffee Tent".

    One Sunday Morning, one of our deacons approached me just before I was to get up to preach. He handed me an envelope and said that a lady had just dropped this off, and asked me to read it to the congregation. In the letter, which I read to the Church, she explained that she and her husband had stopped by our Coffee Tent at 3 AM on the way to Temple Hospital in Waco. Her husband's father was dying, and they wanted to get there in time to be with him. We had had prayer with them, and had asked God to allow the man to say goodbye to his Dad. They made it to the hospital, the man entered the room, he and his Dad held hands, and his Dad said, "I love you, son, but I'm going to Glory". And he died. In the envelope was a check made out to our Church for $5,000 for "ministry". That was not the purpose of "Coffee Tent".

    To me, the Great Commission is more "AS you go, make disciples", and not so much "Go out there and hunt people down". Some of our best "evangelistic efforts" were never intended to be "evangelistic efforts". God is so good that way.
    Last edited by Cow Poke; 04-25-2015, 02:18 PM.

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  • Catholicity
    replied
    Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
    Subtitled: 'And why I don't like it.'

    In my twenties I was teaching in a remote country town where I met my wife (who was a Christian). She wasn't a 'beat you over the head' kind of Christian. You knew it was her faith and she answered your questions. I was really into CS Lewis, and began over sometime to accept more and more of Christianity. I had a conversion experience on my own, and since it's intensely personal, I won't bore you with the details. Some time later we were married and both looked for ways to 'serve the Lord' more directly. I accepted a job in a Christian school in Melbourne. (Yes I know, I was never REALLY a Christian because I'm not one now.)

    That didn't last long. The school was involved in a bitter internal dispute over some philosophy as to the extent Creation could be another revelation of God. Great fun. Committed Christians were tearing each other down left and right and conspiring in cadres to oust everybody else.

    I resigned and we came back to teach in state schools.

    We attended a local Baptist church and were very active within it. A lovely lady (since passed) was an elder and wanted very much to do the best she could for God. She used a program called 'Evangelism Explosion' and we all learnt how to 'win' souls, memorising our verses and arguments. We'd go to local families and run through our spiel and harangue people in their own homes. I remember with shame the perplexed look on most people's faces as we interrupted their precious night family time.

    Over time, I got more into the 'charismatic' side of things. We joined an Assembly of God church and I rose to be a worship leader. I can vividly remember how one elder told he just KNEW I was leading by the Spirit because he got goosebumps whenever I lead the music. It was here I learned how easy it was to manipulate the feelings of the congregation. In fact, we were encouraged to do so. I was good at it. We always had an alter appeal and I watched hundreds of people whipped up into an easy emotionalism come forward. It was also here that I learned that many of the programs of the church were fraudulent. They CLAIMED to be doing one thing but were all fundamentally aimed at evangelism. People were considered 'targets' and 'scalps'. It had as much integrity as selling insurance or used cars.

    I have seen this pattern repeated over and over again in various churches and organisations. Ministry X seems a good and charitable thing to do, but remember our REAL aim (which we won't tell the suckers) is to 'win' them for Jesus so I can get a merit badge in heaven.

    I read and thought (yes, and prayed) more and more growing more and more dissatisfied with the dishonesty and hard sell of organised Christianity. So after much anguish I left. I no longer consider myself a Christian and none of you consider me one either.

    I despise evangelism. To me it is a sign of dishonesty and manipulation. It's almost always simple minded. It demeans the Other, because it so hardly ever listens to the life experience the other person has.

    The Jews (who serve the same God) have an entirely different approach. When you say to them you're considering becoming a Jew they usually respond 'Why on earth would you want to do that?' Catholics aren't bad either. They simply can't believe you'd like to be a member of their flawed club. I'm attracted to both because of that.

    It would be a cheap throwaway line to say I left Christianity because of the bad behaviour of a few people. I didn't. I have deep theological and philosophical objections to much of Christian belief and practice. But I will admit to feeling vindicated on a regular basis.
    The kind of Christianity you left is the kind I personally ran away from..... Really far away from. I wrote about some of my experience in a private journal. I left that part of the church and I won't go back. I did become Catholic but for personal reasons I am not there either. I am a Christian but far from evangelical.I think it was uld be appropriate t point out that I would rather missionize by " being and acting" like Jesus to someone else rather than just telling them. Simple words are meaningless to most people. My desire to win people for Jesus isn't really there either but I would rather talk to those who want to listen and do nice things for those who need it.
    Last edited by Catholicity; 04-25-2015, 02:17 PM.

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