My personal experience of evangelism

[Cow Poke]

"ivied che"

Does that have anything to do with cookies?

yes indeedie

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[One Bad Pig]

If I'm reading you right, your issue is with insincerity, dishonesty and deception-by-omission in evangelism, rather than with the idea of evangelism per se?

I think Jesus wouldn't be too impressed with the kinds of sharp practices you encountered. I've always understood the 'Great Commission' to be about helping people to know Jesus as I know Him, and to choose to consciously and actively follow Him in their lives, for all their lives. That's not the kind of hing that happens if you take 'shortcuts' and rush people into a 'commitment'.

That's one major difference between the Protestant and Catholic/Orthodox approach. Protestants tend to go for the quick conversion and admittance, then work towards understanding (I've experienced one exception to this, which involved a Hindu convert to Christianity in college). Catholic/Orthodox churches make sure the person has sufficient understanding, only then allowing admittance. Protestants tend to take the same tack in ecumenism, which is why many Orthodox take a dim view of the ecumenical movement (strangely, Catholics tend to be very Protestant-like in this area).

[JonathanL]

That's one major difference between the Protestant and Catholic/Orthodox approach. Protestants tend to go for the quick conversion and admittance, then work towards understanding (I've experienced one exception to this, which involved a Hindu convert to Christianity in college). Catholic/Orthodox churches make sure the person has sufficient understanding, only then allowing admittance. Protestants tend to take the same tack in ecumenism, which is why many Orthodox take a dim view of the ecumenical movement (strangely, Catholics tend to be very Protestant-like in this area).

As far as I'm aware most* confessional Lutheran denominations (which are the only genuine Lutherans IMO ) require you to get catechised before you're allowed to receive communion in their churches.







*There could be exceptions, but I'm not aware of any.

[Tassman]

Abigail wrote. "Jesus who in turn teaches us how to love others...." You obviously have failed to learn the "how" since you never fail to not show love in your posts.

But of course you mean this in the most loving possible way.

This aside from your dishonesty.

...and this.

[Paprika]

Dang dude. That's a bit much, even for this forum...

Par for the course given Starlight's claims that many Christians are evil.

[firstfloor]

T'is why Paul said Imitate me as I imitate Christ.

Paul was a crafty one to be sure. (firstfloor is still reading Robert Eisenman)

[shunyadragon]

Paul was a crafty one to be sure. (firstfloor is still reading Robert Eisenman)

Nothing wrong with Robert Eisenman. He is a well respected Biblical scholar. I still read his works.

[firstfloor]

Nothing wrong with Robert Eisenman. He is a well respected Biblical scholar. I still read his works.

I know. But it is difficult, turn-twisty reading.

Which brings me, somehow, to an idea about masters and pupils, and evangelists:

The source of knowledge about the universe is the universe itself. As more and more knowledge is extracted human beings have had to specialise in order that progress can continue. Without specialisation we would reach a point when the pupil would consume his entire life simply to copy his master’s knowledge. So progress, which entails a constant revision of ideas, requires the ability to condense experience and pass it on efficiently to future generations by the recruitment of more and more experts in ever more refined areas of knowledge.

Now, contrast this process with evangelism. Evangelism is the anti-progressive conservation of magical or sacred knowledge. While it is aimed at giving people a special perspective on the world it is simultaneously a contamination in the endeavour by education to overcome the undesirable aspects of our nature and habits. It looks backwards to a fictional idyllic existence and forwards to an equally fictional cataclysm. THIS WILL NOT DO.

[MaxVel]

I know. But it is difficult, turn-twisty reading.

Which brings me, somehow, to an idea about masters and pupils, and evangelists:

The source of knowledge about the universe is the universe itself. As more and more knowledge is extracted human beings have had to specialise in order that progress can continue. Without specialisation we would reach a point when the pupil would consume his entire life simply to copy his master’s knowledge. So progress, which entails a constant revision of ideas, requires the ability to condense experience and pass it on efficiently to future generations by the recruitment of more and more experts in ever more refined areas of knowledge.

Now, contrast this process with evangelism. Evangelism is the anti-progressive conservation of magical or sacred knowledge. While it is aimed at giving people a special perspective on the world it is simultaneously a contamination in the endeavour by education to overcome the undesirable aspects of our nature and habits. It looks backwards to a fictional idyllic existence and forwards to an equally fictional cataclysm. THIS WILL NOT DO.

You make very little sense. Your first paragraph praises the passing on of knowledge. Your second paragraph condemns it.

You've got a massively begged question. You're not comparing apples with apples.


In short, while on first glance your post appears eminently sensible, it's full of so much bad logic that it's worthless. THIS WILL NOT DO.

[MaxVel]

Now, now, if you can, keep it exploratory rather than accusatory.

I accuse you of exploring! Fie upon you, explorer!


I'd also like to talk about something I observed growing up. On some evenings, while people were ding their late shopping, a small group of guys would hang out on one busy corner. One would produce a Bible and proceed to harangue the world in general (passers-by, anyone who happened to be in earshot) in a loud voice, with passages from the Bible and comments like 'You are a sinner, and God will judge you. Repent and come to Jesus.' The others would kind of loiter around, perhaps hoping to talk to anyone interested. i never saw anyone who was interested. The manner, tone and content of the 'presentation' was judgmental and negative.

However, they were evangelising, right? And lives were changed, surprisingly enough....






... the people that used to pass that corner regularly found other ways to go to their destinations, or walked on the far side of the street.


Perhaps that's the kind of evangelisation you dislike, Pancreasman. I know I never liked it, even more so when I became a Christian (through no fault of theirs).


Thing is, people are people, with all their faults and flaws. It's not easy to form real relationships with others and share the goodness you've found. It's much easier (practically and psychologically) to just talk at someone, or use a system or method that 'works' - and then you can tell yourself that you've done your duty. This s not an excuse,but it is a explanation as to why Christians too often fail in this area.

Somewhere I think you mentioned being disappointed with how little different Christians seem to be from ordinary people. I think Jesus probably feels the same way. But I do know that being a Christian has made a huge difference in my own life, and really changed me as a person, for the better, in so many ways. I think the problem is that we change at the speed that, and to the extent that, we allow God to work in us. So some may hardly change at all, and some may change, but slowly.

GK Chesterton said:

“The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult; and left untried.”

[Juvenal]

Par for the course given Starlight's claims that many Christians are evil.

Wait ... you're saying Darthie acting evil is on par with Starlight saying some Christians are evil? That's seriously twisted.

I approve.

[Paprika]

Wait ... you're saying Darthie acting evil is on par with Starlight saying some Christians are evil? That's seriously twisted.

I approve.

I'm saying Darth's attacks are on par with Starlight's.

[Adrift]

That's one major difference between the Protestant and Catholic/Orthodox approach. Protestants tend to go for the quick conversion and admittance, then work towards understanding (I've experienced one exception to this, which involved a Hindu convert to Christianity in college). Catholic/Orthodox churches make sure the person has sufficient understanding, only then allowing admittance. Protestants tend to take the same tack in ecumenism, which is why many Orthodox take a dim view of the ecumenical movement (strangely, Catholics tend to be very Protestant-like in this area).

This method of conversion in the Catholic and Orthodox church may count towards why those denominations are shrinking, and why Islam (in the Northern hemisphere) and Protestantism (in the Southern hemisphere) are filling in the gap.

[firstfloor]

You make very little sense.

Ah! Some improvement then.

Another very serious problem for evangelists is that they are either acting out of fear of being punished for leaving lost souls behind or they are exploiting other people’s fear of damnation. To put it crudely they are either cowards or charlatans.

[Adrift]

Ah! Some improvement then.

Another very serious problem for evangelists is that they are either acting out of fear of being punished for leaving lost souls behind or they are exploiting other people’s fear of damnation. To put it crudely they are either cowards or charlatans.

Can you name the exact congregation you have in mind so that I know to avoid them? In the 25 years I've been an orthodox Christian, I've never ever seen any evangelists evangelize out of fear or punishment. Ever. That idea is so alien and non-representational of the reality that I've witnessed personally, that I can't help but think you're assuming this based on some sort of odd media-driven stereotype of some sort.