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The Lilies of the Field

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Why? Because you say so? There are plenty of us who know that worry doesn't help, and we put our trust in God.



    Yes, worry is the natural outcome, but can often be offset or eliminated by faith. Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't give you the right to pronounce it ineffective for those of us who hold to faith in Christ.
    Amen to both of these responses.
    3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures --1 Corinthians 15:3-4 (borrowed with gratitude from 37818's sig)

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    • #17
      "I suppose living from day to day ('take no thought for the morrow') is precisely what we have to learn - through the Old Adam in me sometimes murmurs that if God wanted me to live like the lilies of the field, I wonder He didn't give me the same lack of nerves and imagination as they enjoy! Or is that just the point, the precise purpose of this Divine paradox and audacity called Man - to do with a mind what other organisms do without it?"

      -- CS Lewis

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      • #18
        Originally posted by whag View Post
        Not at all. "Don't worry like a little pansy all the time. Have some wine, if necessary. Relax." See how the point isn't even close to being missed? It's right there in the rhetorical question "Can all your worries add a single moment to your life?" But then he overdoes it with the teleological bit. The question is sufficient to make the point.
        Jesus would have communicated so much better to the people of His time and culture if He had had whag as His PR adviser. Why, oh why did God not realise that? Perhaps He's not omniscient after all....
        ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

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        • #19
          Originally posted by whag
          I wonder what Jesus would have said if someone in the crowd had said lilies aren't arrayed but naked. Moreover, re: clothing providence, I'd be more concerned about covering and warmth than being dressed gaudily like a king.
          He'd probably point out it's a metaphor by using and citing the many metaphors that exist today: e.g. "And time doesn't actually fly when you're having fun." A better question/objection is: animals don't always find food and of course lilies can be deformed. This is, of course, beside the point: the general picture is presented.

          Originally posted by whag
          Originally posted by Cow Poke
          Work like it all depends on you, pray like it all depends on God.
          But it does depend on you. Plenty of people pray to be dressed and few are given a king's wardrobe. (Perhaps maybe rap stars?)
          That's what the man meant.

          Originally posted by whag
          Sometimes in illustrating overmuch, the point is diluted. Better to simply ask "Can all your worries add a single moment to your life?" rather than imply a teleological absurdity about lilies being clothed and God loving you more than botany..."Don't worry like a little pansy all the time. Have some wine, if necessary. Relax." See how the point isn't even close to being missed? It's right there in the rhetorical question "Can all your worries add a single moment to your life?" But then he overdoes it with the teleological bit. The question is sufficient to make the point...No need to hammer it home with absurdity and the obvious untruth that God will always provide clothing to human beings since he does it with flowers. I've heard pastors extrapolate wildly from this illustration.
          Maybe for you, but for a starving Mediterranean peasant and anyone else who doesn't have much of an education, real examples are much better than the mere statement, which can be easily challenged ("How can I relax when I have to work to feed my kids", etc). Studies have shown that being able to relate to something/someone (like learning by trying or with a peer than merely listening to a professor lecture) is much more helpful. This is also why examples from history are good for education, citing parallels helps build a case in addition to the logic behind the argument, and why parables and similar stories with a moral such as fables have been popular for ages - they are also entertaining to some degree.

          Originally posted by whag
          Originally posted by Pytharchimedes
          Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.
          The difference in value has no practical application to your behavior. You'll worry about your children's and your lack of shelter all the same. God's providence for sparrows doesn't make a difference when you're struggling to provide for your family.
          The difference in value serves to illustrate that if God takes care of something of little value, he won't neglect to take care of a person who has greater value. One will always worry, but the point is to realize that things are not in your control, but God's.

          Yes, worry doesn't help but it's unavoidable. Faith doesn't guarantee providence, and worry tends to naturally follow when providence doesn't come.
          Worry is unavoidable if reasonable. Why doesn't faith guarantee providence? And Jesus isn't condemning worry, he is offering advice because most worry is quite voluntary. To put it another way, there was a professor or some other kind of expert who was discussing the adverse effects of stress in modern life and how the body wasn't built for such excessive long-term trauma. He noted that animals in the wild also have it, PTSD, and everything you can name, but those were life and death situations whereas, to paraphrase, you should relax and not let it affect you whatever it is you're falling for (pressure from a boss, coworker, whatever).
          Last edited by Cornelius; 04-14-2015, 06:12 AM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Manwë Súlimo View Post
            "I suppose living from day to day ('take no thought for the morrow') is precisely what we have to learn - through the Old Adam in me sometimes murmurs that if God wanted me to live like the lilies of the field, I wonder He didn't give me the same lack of nerves and imagination as they enjoy! Or is that just the point, the precise purpose of this Divine paradox and audacity called Man - to do with a mind what other organisms do without it?"

            -- CS Lewis

            Amen to this. Human beings are paradoxical: they can choose to live like Buddha and the lillies--sans all desire and disappointment that inevitably comes when desire isn't quenched. Indulging in worry isn't the answer, surely, but neither is indulging in naivete and false hope. My sister occupies the latter category.

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            • #21
              Wait a sec. Did Shuny just 'amen' CP's post?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by whag View Post
                The difference in value has no practical application to your behavior. You'll worry about your children's and your lack of shelter all the same. God's providence for sparrows doesn't make a difference when you're struggling to provide for your family.
                The providence of God in relation to a mere sparrow makes all the difference when it comes to the anxiety that results from fear of our future. Jesus moves the molehills I have made mountains with his eloquent words. They are sublime as anything.

                Originally posted by whag View Post
                Yes, worry doesn't help but it's unavoidable. Faith doesn't guarantee providence, and worry tends to naturally follow when providence doesn't come.
                Worry is pervasive, it is subtle, and highly deceptive, yet, it is far from necessary.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                  Wait a sec. Did Shuny just 'amen' CP's post?
                  Error, wrong post
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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                  • #24
                    Bug fixed. Support ticket closed.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Pytharchimedes View Post
                      What is the meaning of this? Will the Father clothe me in his raiment even if I do not work?
                      No, I don't think that is the meaning of this bit of scripture. I think it is a very poetic way of saying not to worry over insignificant things, like the cut of your clothing. How preachers have been able to spin this into Prosperity Gospel is beyond me.

                      NORM
                      When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

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                      • #26
                        “… will he not much more clothe you?”
                        No, He won’t.
                        “… and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short.” – Hobbes.
                        My advice: Do not attribute the help you receive from your fellow men to God. It is both unnecessarily flattering to a lazy god and unappreciative of your supporters.
                        “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                        “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                        “not all there” - you know who you are

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                          My advice: Do not attribute the help you receive from your fellow men to God. It is both unnecessarily flattering to a lazy god and unappreciative of your supporters.
                          That's just dumb on so many levels. When I praise God for what He has done for me through my friends, they are blessed and rejoicing as well.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            That's just dumb on so many levels. When I praise God for what He has done for me through my friends, they are blessed and rejoicing as well.
                            It's okay. He's just trying to make up for Norm posting something sensible.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                              Do not attribute the help you receive from your fellow men to God. It is both unnecessarily flattering to a lazy god and unappreciative of your supporters.
                              Jesus said it best someway or the other; Give to Man what is Man's, and Give to God what is God's. These are not mutually exclusive, as Cow Poke has pointed out.

                              Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                              “… and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short.” – Hobbes.
                              Indeed, this is true, but also the life of man...communal, rich, delightful, gentle, and lengthy.

                              Waterglass.jpg
                              Last edited by Pytharchimedes; 04-21-2015, 10:48 PM.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                                “… will he not much more clothe you?”
                                No, He won’t.
                                “… and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short.” – Hobbes.
                                My advice: Do not attribute the help you receive from your fellow men to God. It is both unnecessarily flattering to a lazy god and unappreciative of your supporters.
                                There was a little old lady who would come out every morning on the steps of her front porch, raise her arms to the sky and shout, "Praise the Lord!"

                                Well, one day an atheist moved into the house next door. Over time, he became irritated at the little old lady. So every morning he would step out onto his front porch and yell after her, "There is no God!"

                                Time passes with the two of them carrying on this way every day. Then one morning in the middle of winter, the little old lady stepped onto her front porch and shouted, "Praise the Lord! Lord, I have no food and I am hungry. Please provide for me, oh Lord!"

                                The next morning she stepped onto her porch and there were two huge bags of groceries sitting there. "Praise the Lord!" she cried out. "He has provided groceries for me!" The atheist jumped out of the hedges and shouted, "There is no Lord. I bought those groceries!" The little old lady threw her arms into the air and shouted, "Praise the Lord! He has provided me with groceries and He made the devil pay for them!"

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