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Inevitable Fall or Earthly Utopia?

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  • Inevitable Fall or Earthly Utopia?

    Was the fall inevitable or did God expect Adam and all proceeding generations to not sin? Mossrose and Bill the Cat recently corrected me on the latter claim. I was under the impression that God ultimately gave human beings the equipment, and placed them in a sufficient environment, to potentially act perfectly for many generations. I was under the impression that that was the original plan.

    If the fall was inevitable--and that seems to be the message given how soon it's described as occurring in the history of human beings (first generation)--then why does God express regret about making human beings? Even those with limited intelligence would have been able to predict that human beings would fall short of perfection (and probably very soon) given their nature (descended from apes).

    There's a good discussion about this topic here:

    http://christianity.stackexchange.co...man-inevitable

  • #2
    Originally posted by whag View Post
    Was the fall inevitable or did God expect Adam and all proceeding generations to not sin? Mossrose and Bill the Cat recently corrected me on the latter claim. I was under the impression that God ultimately gave human beings the equipment, and placed them in a sufficient environment, to potentially act perfectly for many generations. I was under the impression that that was the original plan.

    If the fall was inevitable--and that seems to be the message given how soon it's described as occurring in the history of human beings (first generation)--then why does God express regret about making human beings? Even those with limited intelligence would have been able to predict that human beings would fall short of perfection (and probably very soon) given their nature (descended from apes).

    There's a good discussion about this topic here:

    http://christianity.stackexchange.co...man-inevitable
    Based on the scripture in Genesis it was likely inevitable that the 'Fall' would take place. I am citing the following post in the posted cite gave a good argument for this view.

    Source: http://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/5156/was-the-fall-of-man-inevitable



    Well, let's have a look at the actual text.

    Genesis 2: 16-17

    16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

    17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    Verse 17 is particularly interesting. "In the day that thou eatest thereof" is not an "if" statement but a "when" statement. This makes me think that yes, it was part of the plan, and that Satan's temptation did not consist of getting them to eat the fruit per se, but of getting them to do it before they were ready (whatever else that would have consisted of.) Unfortunately, the Scriptures are silent on any further details.

    © Copyright Original Source

    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #3
      One of the strongest objections to Christian and Mormon theism is that God created people sick and commanded them to be well.

      Comment


      • #4
        God created Hitler and allowed his evil acts. Why, I do not know. But it does not follow that God does not have a good reason. What that might be, we can only speculate. And why did God create this enormous universe?
        The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

        [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
          God created Hitler and allowed his evil acts. Why, I do not know. But it does not follow that God does not have a good reason. What that might be, we can only speculate. And why did God create this enormous universe?
          you're missing the point entirely. this isn't about the problem of evil. it's about divine expectation and the expression of wrath over those expectations not being met.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by whag View Post
            you're missing the point entirely. this isn't about the problem of evil. it's about divine expectation and the expression of wrath over those expectations not being met.
            Perhaps you will agree to discuss The Last Judgment. Again, I do not know why we are to have that.
            The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

            [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
              Perhaps you will agree to discuss The Last Judgment. Again, I do not know why we are to have that.
              going further back, do you know why we were to have an atonement?

              Comment


              • #8
                The Catholic Church teaches, that Adam and Eve could potentially have chosen once and for all to never eat the fruit of the tree. That's because its commonly considered that Adam and Eve possessed three specific gifts: immortality (duh), infused knowledge (the ability to know the essence of something by seeing it) and finally integrity of will (the ability to make unalterable decisions of will and to be free of having the will be dictated by the body's appetites).

                These three gifts aren't inherent to man, but are gifts that supersede anything man naturally possesses as a Divine gift out of God's goodness.

                By infused knowledge it can then be said that Eve knew perfectly well that she was doing something wrong in eating the apple. Her sin was the sin of pride, wanting to be like God. Especially since accidents, and evil done unknowingly does not constitute moral evil at all. By integrity we can be sure that there is no way that Eve was simple tempted out of hunger, or the sweet smell of the fruit. We can also see that their fall would not have been inevitable in principle. If Eve had declared "No serpent, I remember what the God told me. I shall never eat the fruit of that tree of my own will." No fall would happen.

                The fall is solely the fault of Adam and Eve voluntarily being mislead by the Devil.

                God knew that it would happen, but the fault is theirs.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                  The Catholic Church teaches, that Adam and Eve could potentially have chosen once and for all to never eat the fruit of the tree. That's because its commonly considered that Adam and Eve possessed three specific gifts: immortality (duh), infused knowledge (the ability to know the essence of something by seeing it) and finally integrity of will (the ability to make unalterable decisions of will and to be free of having the will be dictated by the body's appetites).

                  These three gifts aren't inherent to man, but are gifts that supersede anything man naturally possesses as a Divine gift out of God's goodness.

                  By infused knowledge it can then be said that Eve knew perfectly well that she was doing something wrong in eating the apple. Her sin was the sin of pride, wanting to be like God. Especially since accidents, and evil done unknowingly does not constitute moral evil at all. By integrity we can be sure that there is no way that Eve was simple tempted out of hunger, or the sweet smell of the fruit. We can also see that their fall would not have been inevitable in principle. If Eve had declared "No serpent, I remember what the God told me. I shall never eat the fruit of that tree of my own will." No fall would happen.
                  Wow! Temptation for eternity in the Garden of Eden. Sounds like Hell.

                  The fall is solely the fault of Adam and Eve voluntarily being mislead by the Devil.

                  God knew that it would happen, but the fault is theirs.
                  That is an awfully horrendous burden for two innocent humans Created fallible, a will to make decisions, and abundant weaknesses to be tempted. No, if this is true, God Created humanity weak and flawed, and God is responsible for Creation.

                  No fault, they were set up by a higher power.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                    The Catholic Church teaches, that Adam and Eve could potentially have chosen once and for all to never eat the fruit of the tree. That's because its commonly considered that Adam and Eve possessed three specific gifts: immortality (duh), infused knowledge (the ability to know the essence of something by seeing it) and finally integrity of will (the ability to make unalterable decisions of will and to be free of having the will be dictated by the body's appetites).

                    These three gifts aren't inherent to man, but are gifts that supersede anything man naturally possesses as a Divine gift out of God's goodness.

                    By infused knowledge it can then be said that Eve knew perfectly well that she was doing something wrong in eating the apple. Her sin was the sin of pride, wanting to be like God. Especially since accidents, and evil done unknowingly does not constitute moral evil at all. By integrity we can be sure that there is no way that Eve was simple tempted out of hunger, or the sweet smell of the fruit. We can also see that their fall would not have been inevitable in principle. If Eve had declared "No serpent, I remember what the God told me. I shall never eat the fruit of that tree of my own will." No fall would happen.

                    The fall is solely the fault of Adam and Eve voluntarily being mislead by the Devil.

                    God knew that it would happen, but the fault is theirs.
                    1) It doesn't say much for the design that the first generation would literally want the most taboo and unobtainable thing imaginable.

                    2) Having those three traits of immortality, infused knowledge, and integrity of will would prevent such an easy misleading. Having immortality and infused knowledge, they would know the true privilege of the gifts they had. Having infused knowledge and full integrity of will -- and being sufficiently intelligent to understand God was watching them -- they would have been fully aware of Satan's true purpose and the utter impossibility of their becoming God like.
                    Last edited by whag; 04-05-2015, 11:38 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                      God knew that it would happen, but the fault is theirs.
                      I submit that if God knew what would happen before He created them, then created them anyway, then the fault is His. He would have intended beforehand for things to work out that way.
                      Middle-of-the-road swing voter. Feel free to sway my opinion.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Yttrium View Post
                        I submit that if God knew what would happen before He created them, then created them anyway, then the fault is His. He would have intended beforehand for things to work out that way.
                        Temporality gets complicated here, but I've heard it said that God's plan was the atonement all along. I still do not see that as a solution but a Band-Aid being applied to a wound of his making. how does the atonement being planned before the fall sufficiently answer this problem?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by whag View Post
                          Temporality gets complicated here, but I've heard it said that God's plan was the atonement all along. I still do not see that as a solution but a Band-Aid being applied to a wound of his making. how does the atonement being planned before the fall sufficiently answer this problem?
                          It does not. Theologians trying to patch things up in hind sight with Band-Aids, Duct Tape, and Blue Smoke and Mirrors. Clearly visible, but people believe what they want believe regardless even the Emperor's clothes.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            It does not. Theologians trying to patch things up in hind sight with Band-Aids, Duct Tape, and Blue Smoke and Mirrors. Clearly visible, but people believe what they want believe regardless even the Emperor's clothes.
                            The emporer's clothes implies a conspiracy. I don't think that's how this theołogy came into being.

                            Comment

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