Timeless creation ?

[JimL]

Is it possible that God could have, had he chose to do so, created the universe prior its origin of 14 billion or so years ago? In other words is it possible that the universe could be 15, 16, or 100 billion years old right now, had God chose to create it that long ago? Or did God have no choice but to create it 14 billion years ago? Discuss.

[pancreasman]

Is it possible that God could have, had he chose to do so, created the universe prior its origin of 14 billion or so years ago? In other words is it possible that the universe could be 15, 16, or 100 billion years old right now, had God chose to create it that long ago? Or did God have no choice but to create it 14 billion years ago? Discuss.

Personally I don't accept the model of God as a kind of meta-cosmic engineer who 'builds' a universe separate from Himself. I am inclined to think the universe is an organic consequence of God as an apple is an organic consequence of an apple tree. That being said, for the purposes of your question, the universe we're in has particular physical laws whose unfolding to reach the point where we are now requires a specific amount of time (around 14 billion years). I don't think you can read backwards from us now and say, therefore God had no choice but to create us when He did.

[37818]

Is it possible that God could have, had he chose to do so, created the universe prior its origin of 14 billion or so years ago? In other words is it possible that the universe could be 15, 16, or 100 billion years old right now, had God chose to create it that long ago? Or did God have no choice but to create it 14 billion years ago? Discuss.

I do not see a problem, conceptually with this.

". . . Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou [art] God." -- Psalm 90:2. From this eternity was created first.

And the one who created this was God's Logos [the Word] who "was God" too, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. . . . He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. . . . And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) . . . ." -- John 1:3, 10, 14.

And so the Logos [the Word] is God of Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

Again, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." -- John 1:3. (see also Colossians 1:16-18 on this.)

[JimL]

Personally I don't accept the model of God as a kind of meta-cosmic engineer who 'builds' a universe separate from Himself. I am inclined to think the universe is an organic consequence of God as an apple is an organic consequence of an apple tree.
That being said, for the purposes of your question, the universe we're in has particular physical laws whose unfolding to reach the point where we are now requires a specific amount of time (around 14 billion years). I don't think you can read backwards from us now and say, therefore God had no choice but to create us when He did.

But i'm not saying that God had no choice in the matter, i'm asking if you think it possible that our universe, physical laws and all, could have been created by God, had he chose to do so, prior to the 14 billion years ago that we know it to have originated?

[JimL]

I do not see a problem, conceptually with this.

". . . Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou [art] God." -- Psalm 90:2. From this eternity was created first.

And the one who created this was God's Logos [the Word] who "was God" too, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. . . . He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. . . . And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) . . . ." -- John 1:3, 10, 14.

And so the Logos [the Word] is God of Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

Again, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." -- John 1:3. (see also Colossians 1:16-18 on this.)

I don't see how this answers to the question I raised 37818. Its a philosophical question requiring a philosophical answer.

[Irate Canadian]

Is it possible that God could have, had he chose to do so, created the universe prior its origin of 14 billion or so years ago? In other words is it possible that the universe could be 15, 16, or 100 billion years old right now, had God chose to create it that long ago? Or did God have no choice but to create it 14 billion years ago? Discuss.

This is the answer most Christians will give you.

[JimL]

This is the answer most Christians will give you.

Do you mean to speak for most Christians in asserting that they don't bother to think and form opinions on matters relating to their beliefs?

[37818]

But i'm not saying that God had no choice in the matter, i'm asking if you think it possible that our universe, physical laws and all, could have been created by God, had he chose to do so, prior to the 14 billion years ago that we know it to have originated?

What if what current science thinks they are looking at as the beginning, is really the universe's collapsing in on itself, as seen in the distant past. Making he universe much much older than the mere 14 billion years calculated based on an assumed beginning.

"Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens [are] the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: . . . ." -- Psalm 102:25-26.

So what our current science calls "dark energy" would be really an evidence of the universe collapsing in on itself.

[JimL]

What if what current science thinks they are looking at as the beginning, is really the universe's collapsing in on itself, as seen in the distant past. Making he universe much much older than the mere 14 billion years calculated based on an assumed beginning.

"Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens [are] the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: . . . ." -- Psalm 102:25-26.

So what our current science calls "dark energy" would be really an evidence of the universe collapsing in on itself.

But the question isn't about the particular time that the universe was created, the question is, no matter when the universe was created, could God have created it prior to that time if he so chose? In other words "if" it is true, "if" the science is correct, and the universe began 14 billion years ago, could God have created it say 20 billion years ago instead of 14 billion years ago if he so chose?

[pancreasman]

But i'm not saying that God had no choice in the matter, i'm asking if you think it possible that our universe, physical laws and all, could have been created by God, had he chose to do so, prior to the 14 billion years ago that we know it to have originated?

I guess I'm really not sure what you mean. Isn't iit true that time itself began with universe? If so, then the timeline of the universe is like a ball of string unravelling. It takes 14 billion years to unravel as far as it has. Are you asking if the universe could have been created 'earlier' and held in stasis until God caused it to unwind? If He did, how would we know? There would be no evidence. Or are you looking at eternity past as a big timeline within which God at some point created the universe. Why that point? Could God have started 'earlier'? If this is what you're asking I think the problem is the idea of God existing in some kind of ' super timeline'. Most theologians postulate God existing in a timeless state (whatever the heck THAT MEANS.)

[JimL]

I guess I'm really not sure what you mean. Isn't iit true that time itself began with universe?

That is one hypotheses, it certainly began 14 billion years ago as far as our universe is concerned. The other is that time, however that is eventually defined, is itself eternal, our universe beginning within eternal time.

If so, then the timeline of the universe is like a ball of string unravelling. It takes 14 billion years to unravel as far as it has.

Sure, but thats time for our universe, not necessarily the beginning of time. You had a beginning in time as well and have travelled as far as you have within it, but time didn't begin with you, you began in it.

Are you asking if the universe could have been created 'earlier' and held in stasis until God caused it to unwind? If He did, how would we know? There would be no evidence. Or are you looking at eternity past as a big timeline within which God at some point created the universe. Why that point? Could God have started 'earlier'? If this is what you're asking I think the problem is the idea of God existing in some kind of ' super timeline'. Most theologians postulate God existing in a timeless state (whatever the heck THAT MEANS.)

Okay, the question is this; If as it is claimed, God is eternal, existing outside of the temporal world of his creation, could he have created that temporal world so that it is now a trillion years old rather than 14 billion years old? In order to do so would require the existence of time prior to 14 billion years ago, indeed it would require time to have been existent a trillion years ago. If God could have created time prior to 14 billion years ago would presuppose the existence of a "time before" 14 billion years ago in order that he do so. Also, if time did not precede the existence of the universe, then like the notion some have of God, the universe would be eternal.

[pancreasman]

That is one hypotheses, it certainly began 14 billion years ago as far as our universe is concerned. The other is that time, however that is eventually defined, is itself eternal, our universe beginning within eternal time.

Sure, but thats time for our universe, not necessarily the beginning of time. You had a beginning in time as well and have travelled as far as you have within it, but time didn't begin with you, you began in it.

Okay, the question is this; If as it is claimed, God is eternal, existing outside of the temporal world of his creation, could he have created that temporal world so that it is now a trillion years old rather than 14 billion years old? In order to do so would require the existence of time prior to 14 billion years ago, indeed it would require time to have been existent a trillion years ago. If God could have created time prior to 14 billion years ago would presuppose the existence of a "time before" 14 billion years ago in order that he do so. Also, if time did not precede the existence of the universe, then like the notion some have of God, the universe would be eternal.

Thank you. That's much clearer but is out of my comfort zone to attempt an answer.

[shunyadragon]

Is it possible that God could have, had he chose to do so, created the universe prior its origin of 14 billion or so years ago? In other words is it possible that the universe could be 15, 16, or 100 billion years old right now, had God chose to create it that long ago? Or did God have no choice but to create it 14 billion years ago? Discuss.

We have had this discussion before concerning the Baha'i view of Creation. I sort of agree with Pancreasman here. You tend to use limiting anthropomorphic terminology to describe the relationship between God, Creation and humanity. IF God exists, the human perspective could not explain the ultimate relationship between God and Creation in a limiting way of how Creation must be.

The Baha'i view is that the attributes and nature of Creation are a reflection of the eternal nature of God that reflects an eternal cyclic process, and not a specific act. Creations are possibly an infinite number of universes within the eternal nature of Divine Creation. Creation would not be a specific act of the anthropomorphic 'watchmaker' form an archaic anthropomorphic human perspective.

You have objected to the Baha'i view before assuming a negative limited view of how God must be in relationship to Creation IF God exists. This in reality only applies to ancient world views of limited archaic visions of the nature of God, and those that wish to assume a negative hostile view of the possibility of the existence of God.

[shunyadragon]

That is one hypotheses, it certainly began 14 billion years ago as far as our universe is concerned. The other is that time, however that is eventually defined, is itself eternal, our universe beginning within eternal time.

This in a way assumes that our universe began at a specific time in the past, ie 'Big Bang cosmology. Current Science of Cosmology does not assume the certainty that our universe began at some point in the past. It is also currently accepted that time does not exist beyond our time space relationship of our universe.

Sure, but thats time for our universe, not necessarily the beginning of time. You had a beginning in time as well and have travelled as far as you have within it, but time didn't begin with you, you began in it.

As above time out side our universe time likely does not have a beginning nor ending.

Okay, the question is this; If as it is claimed, God is eternal, existing outside of the temporal world of his creation, could he have created that temporal world so that it is now a trillion years old rather than 14 billion years old? In order to do so would require the existence of time prior to 14 billion years ago, indeed it would require time to have been existent a trillion years ago. If God could have created time prior to 14 billion years ago would presuppose the existence of a "time before" 14 billion years ago in order that he do so. Also, if time did not precede the existence of the universe, then like the notion some have of God, the universe would be eternal.

Time does not likely exist outside our space time perspective of our universe. In other words there is not likely 'time before.' The eternal infinite world of God does not necessarily exist in time as we view it in our limited perspective.

[JimL]

We have had this discussion before concerning the Baha'i view of Creation. I sort of agree with Pancreasman here. You tend to use limiting anthropomorphic terminology to describe the relationship between God, Creation and humanity. IF God exists, the human perspective could not explain the ultimate relationship between God and Creation in a limiting way of how Creation must be.

Sorry shunya, but anthropomorphic terminology is all we have to go by when it comes to describing anything we believe. If you can not explain the existence of God, then why do you believe it?

The Baha'i view is that the attributes and nature of Creation are a reflection of the eternal nature of God that reflects an eternal cyclic process, and not a specific act. Creations are possibly an infinite number of universes within the eternal nature of Divine Creation. Creation would not be a specific act of the anthropomorphic 'watchmaker' form an archaic anthropomorphic human perspective.

Yes, that could be true, but you give no reason as to why one should believe it is true since it could just as well be that there is nothing divine about the existence of the natural world. Why should I believe that the world is a reflection of the devine rather than what it appears to be, ie. a reality unto itself?

You have objected to the Baha'i view before assuming a negative limited view of how God must be in relationship to Creation IF God exists. This in reality only applies to ancient world views of limited archaic visions of the nature of God, and those that wish to assume a negative hostile view of the possibility of the existence of God.

You have objected to the purely materialistic nature of existence before, assuming a negative limited view of its uncreated natural existence, if it is uncreated. This in reality only applies to ancient world views of limited archaic visions of the nature of the natural world, and those that wish to assume a negative hostile view of the possibility that existence, the natural world, is a reality unto itself.
Sorry for being a bit sarcastic in my reply shunya, but perhaps you can see in it how empty such a statement is to a non-believer. We take a negative view, not to be hostile, but because such assertions have no positive value.