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Christians Don't Sin

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  • #31
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    It's been a hot theological issue for awhile. Even John Wesley believed that Christians would eventually reach a point in this life where they would never sin.
    If sin is so inevitable in people, even those who have Christ assisting their resistance, how is it that God counted on Adam and every generation that proceeded from him to never sin? That's an unrealistically high expectation of generation upon generation of human beings.

    That's one of the reasons I find the Bible's foundational story to be unbelievable.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by whag
      If sin is so inevitable in people, even those who have Christ assisting their resistance, how is it that God counted on Adam and every generation that proceeded from him to never sin? That's an unrealistically high expectation of generation upon generation of human beings.

      That's one of the reasons I find the Bible's foundational story to be utterly unbelievable.
      Where does it say that God counted on Adam and every generation that proceeded from him to never sin?

      And you seem to sending up duplicate posts in this thread.


      Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by mossrose View Post
        Where does it say that God counted on Adam and every generation that proceeded from him to never sin?

        And you seem to sending up duplicate posts in this thread.
        Sin caused death. Clearly, God expected perfection from human beings so as not to introduce that consequence.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by whag View Post
          Sin caused death. Clearly, God expected perfection from human beings so as not to introduce that consequence.
          Do you think that Adam's sin took God by surprise?
          That's what
          - She

          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
          - Stephen R. Donaldson

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
            Do you think that Adam's sin took God by surprise?
            That's an absurd question. If I say "no," that implicates God for creating a set of circumstances which was doomed to fail in the first generation. If I say "yes," that refutes the necessary divine attribute of omniscience.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by whag View Post
              Sin caused death. Clearly, God expected perfection from human beings so as not to introduce that consequence.

              That doesn't answer my question regarding your statement. God certainly did not expect anyone, including Adam and Eve, to be sinless, and I want to know where you read that He does in scripture, as that is what you implied.


              Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by whag View Post
                That's an absurd question. If I say "no," that implicates God for creating a set of circumstances which was doomed to fail in the first generation. If I say "yes," that refutes the necessary divine attribute of omniscience.
                It's not absurd. You seem to want to set God up for "expecting perfection" and now want to try to wiggle out of answering a question on what that "expecting perfection" means.
                That's what
                - She

                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                - Stephen R. Donaldson

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                  It's not absurd. You seem to want to set God up for "expecting perfection" and now want to try to wiggle out of answering a question on what that "expecting perfection" means.
                  I'm not trying to wiggle out of answering. In fact, I gave you two answers but with the qualification that they're both problematic.

                  Forget the word "perfection," then. What, according to Christianity, was God's expectation of humanity?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by whag View Post
                    I'm not trying to wiggle out of answering. In fact, I gave you two answers but with the qualification that they're both problematic.

                    Forget the word "perfection," then. What, according to Christianity, was God's expectation of humanity?
                    To behave just as He foreknew they would. He knew man would not live up to His standard, and already had a plan to allow man to be forgiven for their shortfall.
                    That's what
                    - She

                    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                    - Stephen R. Donaldson

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      That renders your phrase "willful rebellion" meaningless. The term rebellion alone will do. As for the above offenses, nice try. Christians sin more blatantly than engaging in unintentional gossip and eating porky pepperoni (is that even a sin, dude? LOL). The whole point of the thread is that Christians sin knowingly--something your post seems to object to:
                      Indeed, rebellion is wilful, so your phrase would be redundant. When Christians sin intentionally and habitually, they are living in rebellion to God.

                      That question clarifies nothing.
                      It's in reference to the previously quoted verses.

                      I understand that. I don't understand your attempt to distinguish "unwillful rebellion" (e.g., bacon eating, ignorance of specific laws, etc.) from "willful rebellion," which you're coming awfully close to saying Christians can't possibly commit. Quite obviously, very many do commit such sins, and that's why it's a quandary. That's why it's shocking to Christians whenever a pastor scandal occurs. Thus, none of what you said sheds any light on this issue, IMHO.
                      How can someone accurately claim to be a follower of Christ if they live in rebellion to his commands? Their actions demonstrate that they are not a follower of Christ in spite of their claims otherwise.
                      "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                        To behave just as He foreknew they would. He knew man would not live up to His standard, and already had a plan to allow man to be forgiven for their shortfall.


                        If the shortfall is inbuilt, there's nothing for which to be forgiven. The capacity to achieve that standard is absent.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by whag View Post
                          If the shortfall is inbuilt, there's nothing for which to be forgiven.
                          Wrong.

                          The capacity to achieve that standard is absent.
                          Hence the need for Jesus.
                          That's what
                          - She

                          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                          - Stephen R. Donaldson

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
                            Indeed, rebellion is wilful, so your phrase would be redundant. When Christians sin intentionally and habitually, they are living in rebellion to God.
                            No, your phrase is redundant. That wasn't my phrase.







                            Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
                            How can someone accurately claim to be a follower of Christ if they live in rebellion to his commands? Their actions demonstrate that they are not a follower of Christ in spite of their claims otherwise.
                            You might wanna ask King David that. He committed a lot of "willful rebellion" (again, your phrase) despite being a lover of God.
                            Last edited by whag; 03-28-2015, 08:59 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                              We are not under the Old Covenant.
                              God instructions for how to do good works/live rightly/practice righteousness/avoid sin exist independently any particular covenant that offers rewards for keeping them and punishments for disobeying him. As Paul said in Romans 7:7a, it's God's instructions that inform us of what sin is. We are saved by grace through faith, not by practicing righteousness, but for the purpose of practicing righteousness.


                              Also, unclean =/= sin.
                              There's a difference between eating unclean animals and being ceremonially unclean. For instance, someone who was in the same room with a dead body would become ceremonially unclean, but they would not be sinning. They could go home and eat a kosher meal that would become ceremonially unclean when they touched it, but they again would not be sinning. Jesus became ceremonially unclean when he was touched by the woman with bleeding problems in Mark 5, but again that wasn't a sin. However, God instructs that eating unclean animals is a sin.
                              "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Genesis 3 is basically God saying, "this is who you are, and this is who I am - the savior of the world."
                                "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

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