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Evidence for the JEDP theory and the late-dating of the Torah

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  • Evidence for the JEDP theory and the late-dating of the Torah

    What evidence supports the above viewpoints? I would like to know.
    -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
    Sir James Jeans

    -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
    Sir Isaac Newton

  • #2
    There are a lot of sources for the JEDP theory and possibly some variations. I at present consider it the best argument for the origins of the text. The is definitely nothing in terms of pre exile Hebrew text and the fact that Hebrew evolved as a separate language beginning no earlier than 1000 BCE. The ground work is set with no known pre exile text and a great deal of evidence of OT Biblical text of evidence text in Canaanite and Babylonian sources.

    Wikipedia gives a good over view of the argument for the Documentary Hypothesis for the origins here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JEDP_theory
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      There are a lot of sources for the JEDP theory and possibly some variations. I at present consider it the best argument for the origins of the text. The is definitely nothing in terms of pre exile Hebrew text and the fact that Hebrew evolved as a separate language beginning no earlier than 1000 BCE. The ground work is set with no known pre exile text and a great deal of evidence of OT Biblical text of evidence text in Canaanite and Babylonian sources.

      Wikipedia gives a good over view of the argument for the Documentary Hypothesis for the origins here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JEDP_theory
      Ok shunyadragon
      What specifically supports the Documentary Hypothesis? I haven't seen much evidence for it.
      -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
      Sir James Jeans

      -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
      Sir Isaac Newton

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
        What evidence supports the above viewpoints? I would like to know.
        I think the main evidence for the documentary hypothesis is probably the alternation of language in the Flood account (Gen 6-9). The account alternates between YHWH and Elohim, for example, as if two sources have been merged.

        I think the main evidence for a late date is parallels to Babylonian mythology and culture.

        But the Pentateuch also contains a number of Egyptian names and parallels to Egyptian culture, suggesting an early origin in an Egyptian context.
        "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

        Comment


        • #5
          I hold the view that the original autographs were not JEDP as such. But do to the editing and gathering of the texts between the tribes in the time of Ezra resulted in what can account for the JEDP theory.

          "And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded to Israel. And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month. nd he read therein before the street that was before the water gate from the morning until midday, before the men and the women, and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive unto the book of the law. . . ." -- Nehemiah 8:1-3.

          "For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the law of the LORD, and to do it, and to teach in Israel statutes and judgments." -- Ezra 7:10.
          . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Kbertsche View Post
            I think the main evidence for the documentary hypothesis is probably [B]the alternation of language in the Flood account (Gen 6-9). The account alternates between YHWH and Elohim, for example, as if two sources have been merged.

            http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post...9-15b91e573342
            I think that this article sufficiently debunks this.
            Originally posted by Kbertsche View Post
            I think the main evidence for a late date is parallels to Babylonian mythology and culture.
            But the Pentateuch also contains a number of Egyptian names and parallels to Egyptian culture, suggesting an early origin in an Egyptian context.
            What are the parallels to Babylonian mythology and culture?
            -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
            Sir James Jeans

            -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
            Sir Isaac Newton

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
              What evidence supports the above viewpoints? I would like to know.
              There is no external evidence, only internal evidence, which is more interpretive than external evidence. The best defense written for lay people is probably still be Who Wrote the Bible?, written by Richard Elliott Friedman back in the 80s. It is extremely well written and easy to follow. European scholars at the time thought Friedman's work was the last gasp of a dying theory but it has survived. This approach is diachronic, focusing on the historical factors and process behind the current text. More modern synchronic approaches focus on the final form of the text as we have it now, but there is no reason why one cannot combine both approaches, eg, emphasizing the interpretive work of the final editors and even copyists.
              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
                http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post...9-15b91e573342
                I think that this article sufficiently debunks this.
                You will also see a link from this blog post to a scholarly article by Eugene Merrill, which is quite good.

                Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
                What are the parallels to Babylonian mythology and culture?
                The commonly cited parallels are to Babylonian accounts of the creation and the flood. However, all of these ancient near eastern cultures had similar accounts, and it's been argued that the biblical parallels to the Egyptian creation account are just as strong, if not stronger.
                "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
                  What evidence supports the above viewpoints? I would like to know.
                  None. JEDP and the late-dating of the Torah are derived from the faulty assumptions of form criticism.
                  My Amazon Author page: https://www.amazon.com/-/e/B0719RS8BK

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Rational Gaze View Post
                    None. JEDP and the late-dating of the Torah are derived from the faulty assumptions of form criticism.
                    Not sufficient to support a claim of an alternate earlier claim other then the 'Documentary Hypothesis.' You need more support then the text of the Bible text from a specific religious agenda. You need a more comprehensive platform of support based on the actual archeological evidence.
                    Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-03-2014, 07:25 PM.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      Not sufficient to support a claim of an alternate claim other then the 'Documentary Hypothesis.' You need more support then the text of the Bible text from a specific religious agenda. You need a more comprehensive platform of support based on the actual archeological evidence.
                      The same could be said of the documentary hypothesis though.
                      -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
                      Sir James Jeans

                      -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
                      Sir Isaac Newton

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
                        The same could be said of the documentary hypothesis though.
                        The archeological and linguistic evidence supports the documentary hypothesis. What you cited so far did not cite any archeological evidence. It only described an apologetic text interpretation argument, which is weak. The linguistic text argument supports the 'Documentary Hypothesis.'

                        A gave you a pretty good review of the 'Documentary Hypothesis' original developed by Christian Academics' here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JEDP_theory

                        Have you read it? You have not responded to it.

                        Question: What archeological evidence supports your view?
                        Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-03-2014, 07:37 PM.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          The archeological and linguistic evidence supports the documentary hypothesis. What you cited so far did not cite any archeological evidence. It only described an apologetic text interpretation argument, which is weak. The linguistic text argument supports the 'Documentary Hypothesis.'
                          What archaeological evidence? Can you cite specifically what is the archaeological evidence? As for linguistic evidence, what is it?

                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          A gave you a pretty good review of the 'Documentary Hypothesis' original developed by Christian Academics' here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JEDP_theory

                          Have you read it? You have not responded to it.
                          Yeah I have. It just tells me what the hypothesis is, not what evidence there is for it.
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          Question: What archeological evidence supports your view?
                          What possible archaeological evidence could there be for either theory?
                          -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
                          Sir James Jeans

                          -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
                          Sir Isaac Newton

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
                            What archaeological evidence? Can you cite specifically what is the archaeological evidence? As for linguistic evidence, what is it?



                            Yeah I have. It just tells me what the hypothesis is, not what evidence there is for it.


                            What possible archaeological evidence could there be for either theory?
                            The early texts found in Canaanite cuneiform tablets (ie psalms), and the Babylonian and pre Babylonian cuneiform tablets showing the evolving texts of creation and flood stories is evidence of the origins of Biblical texts. The archeological evidence of the evolution of Hebrew from other languages after 1000 BC, and vocabulary in the Hebrew text related to the older Canaanite and Babylonian texts found in the tablets. The evidence that all known Hebrew texts were post exile.

                            Where is the archeological evidence for your case? Still waiting . . .
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              The early texts found in Canaanite cuneiform tablets (ie psalms), and the Babylonian and pre Babylonian cuneiform tablets showing the evolving texts of creation and flood stories is evidence of the origins of Biblical texts. .

                              Flood traditions are quite old. Some like Atrahasis are are at least 1700B.C.
                              See here

                              As for creation see Glenn Miller's articles here


                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              The archeological evidence of the evolution of Hebrew from other languages after 1000 BC, and vocabulary in the Hebrew text related to the older Canaanite and Babylonian texts found in the tablets. The evidence that all known Hebrew texts were post exile.
                              Where is the archeological evidence for your case? Still waiting . . .
                              The language that I believe the Torah was written in wasn't Hebrew but transliterated into Hebrew from another (closely-related) language.
                              From this, I don't think there is archaeological evidence for your position either though.
                              Can you please clarify what is in bold though? Thanks.
                              -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
                              Sir James Jeans

                              -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
                              Sir Isaac Newton

                              Comment

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