Matthew 12:40 an idiom?

[rstrats]

Someone new looking in may know of some writing.

[rstrats]

Perhaps a further rewording of the OP will make it a bit more clear: Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a "discussion" with 6th day of the week crucifixion folks, they frequently assert that it is using common Jewish idiomatic language. I wonder if anyone knows of any writing that shows an example from the first century or before regarding a period of time that is said to consist of a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights where the period of time absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights? If it is using common idiomatic language, there ought to be examples of that usage in order to be able to make that assertion.

[rstrats]

Jedidiah,
re: "rstrats, I believe you have a PM that needs attention."

It has been attended to.

[Faber]

Perhaps a further rewording of the OP will make it a bit more clear: Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a "discussion" with 6th day of the week crucifixion folks, they frequently assert that it is using common Jewish idiomatic language. I wonder if anyone knows of any writing that shows an example from the first century or before regarding a period of time that is said to consist of a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights where the period of time absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights? If it is using common idiomatic language, there ought to be examples of that usage in order to be able to make that assertion.

Randy,

You have been on at least six Christian websites, a Jehovah's Witness website, and possibly many more that I don't know about, asking this very same question.

There is no "common Jewish idiom" that I know of, and obviously nobody else does, or you would have gotten a response somewhere on those other websites. So here's a lengthy response which should explain the situation.

Let’s begin with what we know. That is, that Jesus arose from the dead on the morning of the first day of the week, Sunday morning. The Gospels are unanimous. Read Matthew 28:1; Mark 16:2,9; Luke 24:1 and John 20:1,19.

It was on Sunday that Paul and his missionary team broke bread with the believers at Troas (Acts 20:7). It was the day of the week in which Paul instructed the Christians in Corinth and the churches of Galatia to take a collection for the saints (1 Corinthians 16:1-2).

Now let us work our way backwards. How many days before Sunday morning did Jesus die? In thirteen passages in the New Testament we are given that answer:

(1) Let’s start with the first statement Jesus made. It was figurative language, but it became clear what He meant years later. On his visit to the Temple in Jerusalem before Passover at the beginning of His ministry, he saw the Bazaars of Annas, those wretched symbols of corruption of the high priest. In anger he made a whip and drove the sacrificial animals away and overturned the tables. The priests approached Him and questioned Him.

Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body. (John 2:18-21)

(2) The second mention of His crucifixion and resurrection is found in all three of the Synoptic Gospels. Jesus asked His disciples who the people say He is. John the Baptist, maybe Elijah, maybe another prophet. Peter confesses that He is the Christ of God.

He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God. And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing; Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day. (Luke 9:20-22; see also Matthew 16:21-23)

But the wording is different in Mark’s Gospel, suggesting that the phrases “the third day” and “after three days” are interchangeable.

And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. (Mark 8:31)

Not understanding what Jesus meant earlier about destroying and rebuilding the Temple, this would probably be the first occasion in which Jesus clearly told them of his rejection and death. Matthew and Mark add the account of Peter rebuking Jesus, and Jesus in turn rebuking Peter, saying, “Get thee behind me, Satan.”

(3) The third mention of His crucifixion and resurrection is found only in Mark’s Gospel. Shortly afterwards Jesus again told the His disciples that He would be killed and rise again, but in different words. Quoting from the New American Standard Bible this time,

For He was teaching His disciples and telling them, "The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later." But they did not understand this statement, and they were afraid to ask Him. (Mark 9:31-32, NASB)

This is consistent with the earliest manuscripts of Mark 9:31, Nestle’s Greek, Westcott & Hort, Tischendorf, New International Bible, English Standard Version, Darby, and nearly all other translations. The King James Bible reads along with Douay-Rheims and the Textus Receptus, “he shall rise the third day.”

(4) The fourth mention comes from Luke. While still in Galilee, a group of Pharisees advised Jesus to leave, warning Him that the tetrarch Herod Antipas sought to kill Him, as he did John the Baptist. His response to the Pharisees had a hidden meaning.

The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee. And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. (Luke 13:31-32)

(5) The fifth mention appears in Luke and Matthew. Jesus and His disciples journeyed toward Jerusalem. It would be His last trip to the city before His crucifixion. Before they reached Jericho Jesus told them one last time,

For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. (Luke 18:32-33; see also Matthew 20:18-19)

(6) There are other mentions of the third day that follow. When Jesus was on trial before the Sanhedrin, they had problems finding witnesses against Him. Two witnesses were required who could remember the exact thing Jesus said, the exact time and date, the exact place He said it. He said many things over the past few years, but the witnesses couldn’t agree with one another. But this event burned in their minds. They remembered the exact circumstances, time and place. It was two years ago, before Passover, when Jesus entered the outer courtyard of the Temple and violently drove the vendors and money changers out of the temple courtyard. These two witnesses were there that day as the religious leaders confronted Jesus.

At the last came two false witnesses, And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days. (Matthew 26:60-61; see also Mark 14:58)

(7) And as Jesus hung on the cross, the religious leaders, still not understanding what Jesus meant, taunted Him,

And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads, And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross. (Matthew 27:39-40)

(8) Jesus’s lifeless body was taken down off the cross and buried in a nearby tomb. Although the chief priests and Pharisees didn’t believe He would rise from the dead, they were aware that He had made that claim, and were concerned that the disciples, believing that claim, may come and steal the body.

Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first. (Matthew 27:62-64)

(9) From the two angels standing before the empty tomb, addressing the women who arrived early in the morning:

He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. (Luke 24:6-7)

(10) The two men on the road to Emmaus, not realizing that they were talking to the resurrected Jesus, told Him,

But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done. (Luke 24:21)

(11) But Jesus reminded them, without identifying Himself, that the Messiah would rise on the third day:

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: (Luke 24:45-46)

(12) Jumping ahead a few years, we have Peter’s testimony before Cornelius, the Roman centurion.

And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; (Acts 10:39-40)

(13) Lastly, we have the account from the Apostle Paul.

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: (1 Corinthians 15:3-4)

Of the above, Mark consistently says three times (passages 2, 3 and 6) that Jesus would rise “in three days”. John says it once (passage 1). Luke/Acts is consistent is saying “the third day” seven times (passages 2, 4, 5, 9, 10, 11 and 12) as does Paul (passage 13). Only Matthew uses both phrases, “the third day” (passages 2 and 5) and “after three days (passages 6, 7 and 8). But what is interesting is passage 2, found in Matthew, Mark and Luke, but Mark’s use of “after three days” suggests that both phrases have the same meaning. That is, “after three days” includes the first day, the day of His burial.

The grammar is consistent with 2 Chronicles 10:5,12 (likewise, 1 Kings 12:5,12). Rehoboam said to Jeroboam and all Israel, “ ‘Come again to me after three days,’ ” (v. 5) then we read, “So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam on the third day.” (v. 12)

Add to the above, the references to the body of Jesus having to be buried before the beginning of the Sabbath, because he died on the day of preparation for the Sabbath. (Matthew 27:62; Mark 15:42-43; Luke 23:54; John 19:42)

So all the above agree that Jesus died on Friday afternoon and was buried before sunset, lay in the tomb Friday night, all day Saturday and Saturday night, and rose from the tomb some time after sunrise Sunday morning, a total of at least 36 hours, but not much more than that. By ancient Roman and modern reckoning, in which a day begins and ends at midnight, it was part or all of three days. By ancient Jewish and Greek reckoning, in which a day begins and ends at sunset, (Pliny, Naturalis Historia (The Natural History), II.37), it was still part or all of three days.

But there is one fly in the ointment, which you often bring up, and that is the following passage:

Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (Matthew 12:38-40)

The same context is repeated in the parallel passage in Luke 11:29-32, except that Luke makes no mention of Jonah spending three days and nights in the whale’s belly or Jesus spending three days and nights in the heart of the earth.

This has led many Bible students to push the crucifixion back to Thursday and the Passover on Thursday evening. This could account for the missing day in which no activity took place according to many chronologies. Friday would then become the Passover Sabbath, and Saturday would become the seventh-day Sabbath. This would explain why the word for Sabbath in Matthew 28:1 is plural instead of singular. It was also possible but unlikely for the new moon to have been visible two weeks previously on Thursday evening at sunset, being 22 hours old. But this extends the time Jesus lay in the grave to only three whole night and two whole days.

Another variation places the crucifixion on Wednesday, but holds that Jesus rose some time early on Saturday night, making a total of slightly more than three days and three nights. Lunar observation could make this feasible on Wednesday, April 25, AD 31, but not AD 30.

The most likely view of this problem is that Matthew 12:40 is speaking figuratively, counting a portion of a day as a whole. Is this feasible?

Look at an example of the grammar in the Old Testament. In Esther 4:16, Esther tells Mordechai to

“neither eat nor drink three days, night or day” until she would enter the king’s presence. But she entered his presence two days later, “on the third day.” (Esther 5:1)

Or we can look at the Egyptian slave that was abandoned by his master and brought to David.

“He had eaten no bread, nor drunk any water, three days and three nights.” (1 Samuel 30:12), but he said, “three days agone I fell sick.” (1 Samuel 30:13)

I hope this helps.

[Faber]

To fix my quotations on those last few lines:

Look at an example of the grammar in the Old Testament. In Esther 4:16, Esther tells Mordechai to

“neither eat nor drink three days, night or day”

until she would enter the king’s presence. But she entered his presence two days later,

“on the third day.” (Esther 5:1)

Or we can look at the Egyptian slave that was abandoned by his master and brought to David.

“He had eaten no bread, nor drunk any water, three days and three nights.” (1 Samuel 30:12)

but he said,

"three days agone I fell sick." (1 Samuel 30:13)

[rstrats]

Faber,
re: "There is no 'common Jewish idiom' that I know of, and obviously nobody else does, or you would have gotten a response somewhere on those other websites."

So I wonder how some 6th day of the week crucifixion advocates are able to say that the missing night of Matthew 12:40 can be explained by its use of common idiomatic language? How can they say it was common usage if they don't know of any examples of such usage?



re: "Let’s begin with what we know. That is, that Jesus arose from the dead on the morning of the first day of the week..."

Actually, there is only one scripture, Mark 16:9 - as it is translated in the KJV and similar versions - that says that the resurrection took place on the first of the week. And even that one is questioned by many scholars as to its authenticity.



re: "But the wording is different in Mark’s Gospel, suggesting that the phrases 'the third day' and 'after three days' are interchangeable."

They are only interchangeable if the phrase, "the third day", is referring to the third day "after" the resurrection. The more specific interprets the less specific.



re: "'...and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later...' (Mark 9:31-32, NASB)"

So if He died on the afternoon of the 6th day of the week, then one day later would be the 7th day of the week, and two days later would be the 1st day of the week, which makes 3 days later the 2nd day of the week.




re: "'But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done. (Luke 24:21)'"

So if the 1st day of the week was "the third day since these things were done" and because the last thing mentioned was the crucifixion (Luke 24:20), then the 7th day of the week would have been the second day since the crucifixion. This would mean that the 6th day of the week was the first day since the crucifixion, which in turn would mean that the 5th day of the week was the day that the crucifixion took place.



re: "Look at an example of the grammar in the Old Testament. In Esther 4:16, Esther tells Mordechai to 'neither eat nor drink three days, night or day' until she would enter the king’s presence. But she entered his presence two days later, 'on the third day.' (Esther 5:1)"

Nothing in the Esther account precludes at least a part of three daytimes and at least a part of three night times.




re: "Or we can look at the Egyptian slave that was abandoned by his master and brought to David. 'He had eaten no bread, nor drunk any water, three days and three nights.' (1 Samuel 30:12), but he said, 'three days agone I fell sick.' (1 Samuel 30:13)"

Likewise, nothing in the account precludes at least a part of three daytimes and a least a part of three night times.


But I've let myself get drawn of topic again. For the purpose of this thread I'm really only concerned with what is reqested in the OP and clarified in post 47.

[Faber]

Actually, there is only one scripture, Mark 16:9 - as it is translated in the KJV and similar versions - that says that the resurrection took place on the first of the week. And even that one is questioned by many scholars as to its authenticity.

Granted, I should have left that one out. But the other passages are absolutely clear that it was on Sunday, the first day of the week, that it took place.

What exactly is it that you believe? That Jesus was resurrected on Monday?

[One Bad Pig]

Granted, I should have left that one out. But the other passages are absolutely clear that it was on Sunday, the first day of the week, that it took place.

What exactly is it that you believe? That Jesus was resurrected on Monday?

IIRC he believes that the crucifixion happened on Wednesday, and the Resurrection happened on Saturday.

[rstrats]

Faber,
re: "Granted, I should have left that one out. But the other passages are absolutely clear that it was on Sunday, the first day of the week, that it took place."

That is incorrect. The other verses only say that the tomb was empty when the women arrived at it. They say nothing with regard to when it became empty.



re: "What exactly is it that you believe? That Jesus was resurrected on Monday?"

I think scripture more likely suggests a 1st day of the week resurrection.

[rstrats]

Change 1:

The comment in post #51: "They are only interchangeable if the phrase, 'the third day', is referring to the third day 'after' the resurrection." should be chaged to: "They are only interchangeable if the phrase, 'the third day' is referring to the third day 'after' the crucifixion."

[rstrats]

One Bad Pig,
re: "IIRC..."

What does IIRC stand for?

[John Reece]

One Bad Pig,
re: "IIRC..."

What does IIRC stand for?

If I recall correctly.

[rstrats]

John Reece,
re: "If I recall correctly."

OK, thanks.

[rstrats]

One Bad Pig,
re: "IIRC"

I'm sorry, but you don't.

[rstrats]

With the new year upon us, maybe there will be someone new looking in who knows of examples as requested in the OP and clarified in further posts. And again, remember that the purpose of this topic is not to discuss how long the Messiah was in the heart of the earth. As stated, there are other topics that do that. However, there are those who say that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language such as the Messiah saying that He would be in the heart of the earth for 3 nights when He knew that it would only be for 2 nights. But in order to say that it was common, one would have to know of other instances where the same pattern had to have been used. I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise. So far no one has come forth with any.