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Matthew 12:40 an idiom?

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  • Matthew 12:40 an idiom?

    Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a “discussion” with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a common Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone (who thinks that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" means the tomb) knows of any writing that shows that a phrase stating a specific number of days as well as a specific number of nights was ever used in the first century or before when it absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specific number of days and at least parts of each one of the specific number of nights?

  • #2
    Originally posted by rstrats View Post
    Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a “discussion” with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a common Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone (who thinks that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" means the tomb) knows of any writing that shows that a phrase stating a specific number of days as well as a specific number of nights was ever used in the first century or before when it absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specific number of days and at least parts of each one of the specific number of nights?
    Do you think then Jonah spent a literal three days and three nights in the (literal) belly of a (literal) fish?

    Comment


    • #3
      It's a hoot how you try to subtly cast aspersions on the mainstream position by giving it a special name. Don't you have anything better to argue about? This topic was beaten to death on the old Tweb.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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      • #4
        Geert van den Bos,

        re: "Do you think then Jonah spent a literal three days and three nights in the (literal) belly of a (literal) fish?"

        I have no conviction one way or the other with regard to that.

        Do you know of any writing as asked for in the OP?

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        • #5
          One Bad Pig,

          re: "It's a hoot how you try to subtly cast aspersions on the mainstream position by giving it a special name."


          What special name do you say Geert van den Bos is giving?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by rstrats View Post
            Geert van den Bos,

            re: "Do you think then Jonah spent a literal three days and three nights in the (literal) belly of a (literal) fish?"

            I have no conviction one way or the other with regard to that.
            On ground of what do you think then that Jesus must have spent a literal three days and three nights in the grave?

            Originally posted by rstrats View Post
            Do you know of any writing as asked for in the OP?
            No.

            Comment


            • #7
              http://en.allexperts.com/q/Orthodox-...-Reckoning.htm
              . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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              • #8
                37818,

                I'm afraid I don't see where your link provides an actual case where a phrase stating a specific number of days as well as a specific number of nights was used in the first century or before when it absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specific number of days and at least parts of each one of the specific number of nights.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Geert van den Bos,

                  re: "On ground of what do you think then that Jesus must have spent a literal three days and three nights in the grave?"


                  If by "literal three days and three nights" you mean 72 hours, I think Luke 24:21 indicates that the period of time would have had to have been less than that.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rstrats View Post
                    Geert van den Bos,

                    re: "On ground of what do you think then that Jesus must have spent a literal three days and three nights in the grave?"


                    If by "literal three days and three nights" you mean 72 hours, I think Luke 24:21 indicates that the period of time would have had to have been less than that.
                    O sorry, I thought you meant that Jesus must have been in the grave for 72 hours.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      May be relevant:

                      John 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by rstrats View Post
                        37818,

                        I'm afraid I don't see where your link provides an actual case where a phrase stating a specific number of days as well as a specific number of nights was used in the first century or before when it absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specific number of days and at least parts of each one of the specific number of nights.
                        The link gives an example based on the torah, how part of a day is counted as a whole day. Where 40 days could actually be 38 days plus parf of a day before and part of a day after to count as 40 days. The 6th day crucifixion tradition is based on this. Our Friday part of one day, the Sabbath and our Sunday morning being the third day. [Personally I believe the crucifixion took place on a Thursday. Besides there are those who hold a 72 hour Wednesday view.]
                        . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Then Esther told them to reply to Mordecai,
                          "Go, assemble all the Jews who are found in Susa, and fast for me; do not eat or drink for three days, night or day. I and my maidens also will fast in the same way. And thus I will go in to the king, which is not according to the law; and if I perish, I perish."
                          So Mordecai went away and did just as Esther had commanded him (Esther 4:15-17, NASB).
                          Now it came about on the third day that Esther put on her royal robes and stood in the inner court of the king's palace in front of the king's rooms, and the king was sitting on his royal throne in the throne room, opposite the entrance to the palace (Esther 5:1).

                          They (including Esther) were to fast for three days (night and day) before Esther was to go to the king but on the third say she went and saw him. Part of a day counts as a whole.



                          1. TDNT: The difficulty has often been advanced that there is a discrepancy between Mt., Lk. and Pl and the usual meta treis heemeras of Mk. But in this connection it has to be remembered that difficulties always arise in the reckoning of days according to Jewish usage. Thus "in Halachic statements part of a day is reckoned as a whole day" and already in the first century A.D. we read: "A day and a night constitute a full day, and part of a full day counts as a whole full day" (jShab., 12a, 15, 17; it is in this light that we are to understand Mt. 12:40) (2:949-950, hemera, Delling).
                          2. Kistemaker: (Acts 10:30): "Four days ago." The time has come for Corenelius to explain why he summoned Peter to his home. In a few sentences he relates the incident that happened "four days ago at this hour." Strictly speaking, the time between Cornelius's vision and the moment he addresses Peter is only three days. But in first-century Palestine, the people regarded part of a day as a full day. Hence, the day of Cornelius's vision is the first day; the day of Peter's vision and the arrival of the messengers in Joppa, the second; the day the travelers left Joppa, the third; the day they arrived in Caesarea, the fourth (Exposition of the Acts of the Apostles, page 389).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            The link gives an example based on the torah, how part of a day is counted as a whole day. Where 40 days could actually be 38 days plus parf of a day before and part of a day after to count as 40 days. The 6th day crucifixion tradition is based on this. Our Friday part of one day, the Sabbath and our Sunday morning being the third day. [Personally I believe the crucifixion took place on a Thursday. Besides there are those who hold a 72 hour Wednesday view.]

                            How you would interpret the fourth day of Lazarus?
                            John11:39, Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for it is on the fourth day.

                            τεταρταῖος γάρ ἐστιν -- for it is on the fourth day

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              37818,

                              re: "The link gives an example based on the torah, how part of a day is counted as a whole day"

                              Agreed, when referring to a calendar day. But it doesn't give an example where a stated number of daytime periods and/or a stated number of nighttime periods absolutely couldn't have included at least a portion of each one.
                              Last edited by rstrats; 02-01-2014, 10:24 AM.

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