Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Noah - the Clean and the Unclean

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • whag
    replied
    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    Keep twisting and distorting.
    Keep pretending an African flood 50,000 years ago makes a lick of sense.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jedidiah
    replied
    Originally posted by whag View Post
    You must have forgotten you posited an African flood that killed all the unscattered early hominids. That puts your timeline at 50,000 years, no later. You even amen'd King's Gambit's post saying the flood couldn't be any younger since we see people in Australia 50,000 years ago!

    So there's a bit of a math problem here. If Noah lived 50,000 years ago, and Noah's son Ham begat Cush who begat Nimrod, that's considerably less than 50 millennia.

    So the African Noah you posited makes no sense. And, yes, I did "beat" at you on this point.
    Keep twisting and distorting.

    Leave a comment:


  • whag
    replied
    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    Quite a mixture of YEC and skeptical approaches.

    The scholarly post you gave me to show your date for the Tower of Babel:
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel


    http://biblehub.com/timeline/


    I am not sure if this is just dumb or dishonest. In any case I am finished with this discussion. Go claim that you have beaten me.
    You must have forgotten you posited an African flood that killed all the unscattered early hominids. That puts your timeline at 50,000 years, no later. You even amen'd King's Gambit's post saying the flood couldn't be any younger since we see people in Australia 50,000 years ago!

    So there's a bit of a math problem here. If Noah lived 50,000 years ago, and Noah's son Ham begat Cush who begat Nimrod, that's considerably less than 50 millennia.

    So the African Noah you posited makes no sense. And, yes, I did "beat" at you on this point.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jedidiah
    replied
    Read up on it. I'm not making it up, and it's not a YEC view.

    50,000 years' worth of generations between Noah and Nimrod doesn't sound right to me given that Ham was Nimrod's grandfather according to Genesis 10.
    Quite a mixture of YEC and skeptical approaches.

    The scholarly post you gave me to show your date for the Tower of Babel:
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel
    “The Tower of Babel has been associated with known structures according to some modern scholars, notably the Etemenanki, a ziggurat dedicated to the Mesopotamian god Marduk ., . “ good solid scholarship. But then the source you originally used for the date of the tower was clearly YEC.
    http://biblehub.com/timeline/

    Before Time
    In the Beginning was the Word
    John 1
    Before 4000 BC
    The Creation
    Genesis 1
    Before 4000 BC
    The Garden of Eden
    Genesis 2
    Before 4000 BC
    The Fall of Man
    Genesis 3
    Before 3000 BC
    Cain kills Abel
    Genesis 4
    Before 3000 BC
    From Adam to Noah
    Genesis 5
    Before 2500 BC
    Wickedness Provokes God's wrath
    Genesis 6
    Before 2500 BC
    The Great Flood
    Genesis 7
    Before 2500 BC
    The Flood Subsides
    Genesis 8
    Before 2500 BC
    Covenant of the Rainbow
    Genesis 9
    Before 2500 BC
    Shem, Ham and Japheth
    Genesis 10
    Before 2100 BC
    Job's Suffering and Faith
    Job 1 - 42
    Before 2100 BC
    The Tower of Babel
    Genesis 11
    50,000 years' worth of generations between Noah and Nimrod doesn't sound right to me given that Ham was Nimrod's grandfather according to Genesis 10.
    I am not sure if this is just dumb or dishonest. In any case I am finished with this discussion. Go claim that you have beaten me.

    Leave a comment:


  • whag
    replied
    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    You put words and beliefs in my mouth that I have yet to express. Isn't that precious?
    No, I actually quoted you directly. Does dating the flood according to the consensus timeline of scholars Christian and skeptic have anything to do with "the flood I don't believe in"? Moreover, you're suggesting the flood could have occurred in Africa based on human origin evidence you "don't believe in."

    Leave a comment:


  • Jedidiah
    replied
    Originally posted by whag View Post
    No, I don't care what you do. That has nothing to do with what I said. I said you charged me with dating a flood:

    "Do you have evidence that the flood you do not believe in took place around 4000BC?"

    Now you're researching anthropology you don't believe in? That's precious.

    Don't research it for me. I already know the significance of geography and timeline. Do it for you.
    You put words and beliefs in my mouth that I have yet to express. Isn't that precious?

    Leave a comment:


  • whag
    replied
    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    You have a problem with me doing some research before answering?
    No, I don't care what you do. That has nothing to do with what I said. I said you charged me with dating a flood:

    "Do you have evidence that the flood you do not believe in took place around 4000BC?"

    Now you're researching anthropology you don't believe in? That's precious.

    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    Perhaps I should forget the whole thing.
    Don't research it for me. I already know the significance of geography and timeline. Do it for you.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jedidiah
    replied
    Originally posted by whag View Post
    In other words, you're arguing from the standpoint of what you believe to be false "current thinking," since "current thinking" accepts the consilience of evidence for human evolution. See how you're doing what you charged me with doing in smart alleck fashion?
    You have a problem with me doing some research before answering? Perhaps I should forget the whole thing.

    Leave a comment:


  • whag
    replied
    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    I do not have as specific belief as to where our origin was. I simply stated that Africa is the most likely local. I should correct that to say according to current thinking.
    In other words, you're arguing from the standpoint of what you believe to be false "current thinking," since "current thinking" accepts the consilience of evidence for human evolution. See how you're doing what you charged me with doing in smart alleck fashion?

    Leave a comment:


  • Jedidiah
    replied
    Originally posted by whag View Post
    OEC doesn't allow for playing with the timeline and geography however you see fit. You're still required to play according to the rules of epistemology. Babel's locked in a particular space and time. Can't get around that.
    Exactly why I am going to do some research on the stated time for Babel before responding.

    Originally posted by whag View Post
    I wonder why you even acknowledge the evidence for human beings originating in Africa but reject the knowledge we evolved there. Those fossil skeletons are precisely why we call that continent our birthplace. In light of that, why do you even think we originated there?
    I do not have as specific belief as to where our origin was. I simply stated that Africa is the most likely local. I should correct that to say according to current thinking.

    Leave a comment:


  • whag
    replied
    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    I will have to get back to you on this stuff. What knowledge I had is long forgotten.

    OEC doesn't allow for playing with the timeline and geography however you see fit. You're still required to play according to the rules of epistemology. Babel's locked in a particular space and time. Can't get around that.

    I wonder why you even acknowledge the evidence for human beings originating in Africa but reject the knowledge we evolved there. Those fossil skeletons are precisely why we call that continent our birthplace. In light of that, why do you even think we originated there?

    Leave a comment:


  • shunyadragon
    replied
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Interesting source. It gives a criticism Glen Morton's (Glen of Tweb fame) proposal that the flooding of the Mediterranian was Noah's flood. Glen responds. It also give critique of the Black Sea flood as Noah's flood. The problem with these prroposals is the time frame is really weird and screwed up to fit any Biblical perspective.
    Add note: I believe most Christians who believe there was some kind of flood, believe it occurred in the Middle East. Those the believe in a real Adam and Eve may be split between Africa (ie, Head waters of the Nile), and the Middle East (ie, Tigris-Euphrates Valley).

    Leave a comment:


  • Jedidiah
    replied
    Originally posted by whag View Post
    There's difference between YEC and agreement among scholars as to the period and geography referred to in the text. That's not YEC but scholars, archaeologists, and historians taking into account much more than genealogy math! Do you know what those pieces of evidence are?

    In the case of Babel, the consensus is that this was ancient Sumer--the advent of large-scale architecture. They even have myth that sounds like Babel.




    Read up on it. I'm not making it up, and it's not a YEC view.


    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel




    How much older? Why do you suspect that?





    Everything evolves. Your dog's ancestors were all wild wolves.

    Your skepticism is born of ignorance and denial. Sorry.



    And all that contradicts known early human migration patterns. There's no evidence we coalesced anywhere but were always intrepid explorers as long ago as 50,000 years ago sailing on rickety rafts from Africa to Australia.

    This view you're cobbling together needs serious maintenance. Might want to start actually accepting biological evolution first.

    We evolved. That's what all those weird hominid skeletons are. Then there's the DNA....
    I will have to get back to you on this stuff. What knowledge I had is long forgotten.

    Leave a comment:


  • shunyadragon
    replied
    Originally posted by whag View Post
    Cute, Jedidiah. Holster that sarcasm until you could use it well, k?

    http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2001/PSCF3-01Hill.html
    Interesting source. It gives a criticism Glen Morton's (Glen of Tweb fame) proposal that the flooding of the Mediterranian was Noah's flood. Glen responds. It also give critique of the Black Sea flood as Noah's flood. The problem with these prroposals is the time frame is really weird and screwed up to fit any Biblical perspective.

    Leave a comment:


  • NormATive
    replied
    Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
    ETA:
    There are also some Jews that hold that the Torah preexisted the creation of the world and was sort of like the blueprint that God use to create it.
    I have heard this during Minyans in the past from Kabbalist teachers. These are the same people who think there is numerology in the Tanakh.

    NORM

    Leave a comment:

Related Threads

Collapse

Topics Statistics Last Post
Started by lee_merrill, 06-03-2021, 11:57 AM
1 response
38 views
0 likes
Last Post Christian3  
Started by Machinist, 05-26-2021, 10:52 AM
97 responses
522 views
0 likes
Last Post Stoic
by Stoic
 
Started by seer, 05-12-2021, 05:35 AM
557 responses
3,486 views
0 likes
Last Post Stoic
by Stoic
 
Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 05-09-2021, 09:43 AM
21 responses
189 views
0 likes
Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 05-09-2021, 09:34 AM
144 responses
1,079 views
1 like
Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
Working...
X