Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Noah - the Clean and the Unclean

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #76
    Originally posted by whag View Post
    4,000 years ago approx. Definitely not tens of thousands of years ago. There's no ziggurat remnants that date back that far.

    http://biblehub.com/timeline/

    According to you, when all human beings were in Africa. That'd be 50,000 years ago or longer. We already went over this. You amened KG's post about it.
    First of all you keep hitting me with Young Earth garbage. I am not a Young Earther. You can stop that and I will stop poking fun at it.

    Are you suggesting that the Tower of Babel was the same as the ziggurats we know of? I suspect that it was much older than your YE source claims. And I suspect that it would have been a lot less sophisticated than ziggurats of a more current date.

    Finally I have made no claim of the dating of the first humans. I suspect that it would have been much older than 50,000 years. I have not looked into that for some time.

    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    I am proposing that a universal flood (one that killed all humans with the exception of those on the arc, but did not flood the entire globe) might well have taken place at whatever the location of the earliest humans was - Africa seems to be most likely.
    I made no specific claim about when or where the flood took place (I do believe it was a local event that wiped out the human race at that point) nor where the race originated. Actually I have made few if any actual claims, merely possible alternatives. The most popular idea puts Africa as the area in which man originated. That may be, or given a small original population being dispersed through the world that may simply be the area where there were sufficient numbers to begin leaving fossil remains. The real evidence for an African origin is the fossil remains of so called pre man. Since as I explained earlier I am an evolution skeptic that is not as convincing to me as it is to you.

    Let me summarize what I do believe. Human beings originated with one created couple. They lived somewhere and reproduced. Ultimately before they left the general area, the flood wiped out the most of them (According to the Bible account people at the earliest point were not adventurous and did not leave the area. Even after the flood they seemed reluctant to spread far until the Tower event.) I make no claims to any detailed knowledge of all this.
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
      First of all you keep hitting me with Young Earth garbage. I am not a Young Earther. You can stop that and I will stop poking fun at it.
      There's difference between YEC and agreement among scholars as to the period and geography referred to in the text. That's not YEC but scholars, archaeologists, and historians taking into account much more than genealogy math! Do you know what those pieces of evidence are?

      In the case of Babel, the consensus is that this was ancient Sumer--the advent of large-scale architecture. They even have myth that sounds like Babel.


      Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
      Are you suggesting that the Tower of Babel was the same as the ziggurats we know of? I suspect that it was much older than your YE source claims. And I suspect that it would have been a lot less sophisticated than ziggurats of a more current date.
      Read up on it. I'm not making it up, and it's not a YEC view.


      http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel


      Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
      I have made no claim of the dating of the first humans. I suspect that it would have been much older than 50,000 years. I have not looked into that for some time.
      How much older? Why do you suspect that?



      Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
      I made no specific claim about when or where the flood took place (I do believe it was a local event that wiped out the human race at that point) nor where the race originated. Actually I have made few if any actual claims, merely possible alternatives. The most popular idea puts Africa as the area in which man originated. That may be, or given a small original population being dispersed through the world that may simply be the area where there were sufficient numbers to begin leaving fossil remains. The real evidence for an African origin is the fossil remains of so called pre man. Since as I explained earlier I am an evolution skeptic that is not as convincing to me as it is to you.
      Everything evolves. Your dog's ancestors were all wild wolves.

      Your skepticism is born of ignorance and denial. Sorry.

      Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
      Let me summarize what I do believe. Human beings originated with one created couple. They lived somewhere and reproduced. Ultimately before they left the general area, the flood wiped out the most of them (According to the Bible account people at the earliest point were not adventurous and did not leave the area. Even after the flood they seemed reluctant to spread far until the Tower event.) I make no claims to any detailed knowledge of all this.
      And all that contradicts known early human migration patterns. There's no evidence we coalesced anywhere but were always intrepid explorers as long ago as 50,000 years ago sailing on rickety rafts from Africa to Australia.

      This view you're cobbling together needs serious maintenance. Might want to start actually accepting biological evolution first.

      We evolved. That's what all those weird hominid skeletons are. Then there's the DNA....

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
        ETA:
        There are also some Jews that hold that the Torah preexisted the creation of the world and was sort of like the blueprint that God use to create it.
        I have heard this during Minyans in the past from Kabbalist teachers. These are the same people who think there is numerology in the Tanakh.

        NORM
        When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by whag View Post
          Cute, Jedidiah. Holster that sarcasm until you could use it well, k?

          http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2001/PSCF3-01Hill.html
          Interesting source. It gives a criticism Glen Morton's (Glen of Tweb fame) proposal that the flooding of the Mediterranian was Noah's flood. Glen responds. It also give critique of the Black Sea flood as Noah's flood. The problem with these prroposals is the time frame is really weird and screwed up to fit any Biblical perspective.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by whag View Post
            There's difference between YEC and agreement among scholars as to the period and geography referred to in the text. That's not YEC but scholars, archaeologists, and historians taking into account much more than genealogy math! Do you know what those pieces of evidence are?

            In the case of Babel, the consensus is that this was ancient Sumer--the advent of large-scale architecture. They even have myth that sounds like Babel.




            Read up on it. I'm not making it up, and it's not a YEC view.


            http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel




            How much older? Why do you suspect that?





            Everything evolves. Your dog's ancestors were all wild wolves.

            Your skepticism is born of ignorance and denial. Sorry.



            And all that contradicts known early human migration patterns. There's no evidence we coalesced anywhere but were always intrepid explorers as long ago as 50,000 years ago sailing on rickety rafts from Africa to Australia.

            This view you're cobbling together needs serious maintenance. Might want to start actually accepting biological evolution first.

            We evolved. That's what all those weird hominid skeletons are. Then there's the DNA....
            I will have to get back to you on this stuff. What knowledge I had is long forgotten.
            Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              Interesting source. It gives a criticism Glen Morton's (Glen of Tweb fame) proposal that the flooding of the Mediterranian was Noah's flood. Glen responds. It also give critique of the Black Sea flood as Noah's flood. The problem with these prroposals is the time frame is really weird and screwed up to fit any Biblical perspective.
              Add note: I believe most Christians who believe there was some kind of flood, believe it occurred in the Middle East. Those the believe in a real Adam and Eve may be split between Africa (ie, Head waters of the Nile), and the Middle East (ie, Tigris-Euphrates Valley).
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                I will have to get back to you on this stuff. What knowledge I had is long forgotten.

                OEC doesn't allow for playing with the timeline and geography however you see fit. You're still required to play according to the rules of epistemology. Babel's locked in a particular space and time. Can't get around that.

                I wonder why you even acknowledge the evidence for human beings originating in Africa but reject the knowledge we evolved there. Those fossil skeletons are precisely why we call that continent our birthplace. In light of that, why do you even think we originated there?

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by whag View Post
                  OEC doesn't allow for playing with the timeline and geography however you see fit. You're still required to play according to the rules of epistemology. Babel's locked in a particular space and time. Can't get around that.
                  Exactly why I am going to do some research on the stated time for Babel before responding.

                  Originally posted by whag View Post
                  I wonder why you even acknowledge the evidence for human beings originating in Africa but reject the knowledge we evolved there. Those fossil skeletons are precisely why we call that continent our birthplace. In light of that, why do you even think we originated there?
                  I do not have as specific belief as to where our origin was. I simply stated that Africa is the most likely local. I should correct that to say according to current thinking.
                  Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                    I do not have as specific belief as to where our origin was. I simply stated that Africa is the most likely local. I should correct that to say according to current thinking.
                    In other words, you're arguing from the standpoint of what you believe to be false "current thinking," since "current thinking" accepts the consilience of evidence for human evolution. See how you're doing what you charged me with doing in smart alleck fashion?

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by whag View Post
                      In other words, you're arguing from the standpoint of what you believe to be false "current thinking," since "current thinking" accepts the consilience of evidence for human evolution. See how you're doing what you charged me with doing in smart alleck fashion?
                      You have a problem with me doing some research before answering? Perhaps I should forget the whole thing.
                      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                        You have a problem with me doing some research before answering?
                        No, I don't care what you do. That has nothing to do with what I said. I said you charged me with dating a flood:

                        "Do you have evidence that the flood you do not believe in took place around 4000BC?"

                        Now you're researching anthropology you don't believe in? That's precious.

                        Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                        Perhaps I should forget the whole thing.
                        Don't research it for me. I already know the significance of geography and timeline. Do it for you.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by whag View Post
                          No, I don't care what you do. That has nothing to do with what I said. I said you charged me with dating a flood:

                          "Do you have evidence that the flood you do not believe in took place around 4000BC?"

                          Now you're researching anthropology you don't believe in? That's precious.

                          Don't research it for me. I already know the significance of geography and timeline. Do it for you.
                          You put words and beliefs in my mouth that I have yet to express. Isn't that precious?
                          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                            You put words and beliefs in my mouth that I have yet to express. Isn't that precious?
                            No, I actually quoted you directly. Does dating the flood according to the consensus timeline of scholars Christian and skeptic have anything to do with "the flood I don't believe in"? Moreover, you're suggesting the flood could have occurred in Africa based on human origin evidence you "don't believe in."

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Read up on it. I'm not making it up, and it's not a YEC view.

                              50,000 years' worth of generations between Noah and Nimrod doesn't sound right to me given that Ham was Nimrod's grandfather according to Genesis 10.
                              Quite a mixture of YEC and skeptical approaches.

                              The scholarly post you gave me to show your date for the Tower of Babel:
                              http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel
                              “The Tower of Babel has been associated with known structures according to some modern scholars, notably the Etemenanki, a ziggurat dedicated to the Mesopotamian god Marduk ., . “ good solid scholarship. But then the source you originally used for the date of the tower was clearly YEC.
                              http://biblehub.com/timeline/

                              Before Time
                              In the Beginning was the Word
                              John 1
                              Before 4000 BC
                              The Creation
                              Genesis 1
                              Before 4000 BC
                              The Garden of Eden
                              Genesis 2
                              Before 4000 BC
                              The Fall of Man
                              Genesis 3
                              Before 3000 BC
                              Cain kills Abel
                              Genesis 4
                              Before 3000 BC
                              From Adam to Noah
                              Genesis 5
                              Before 2500 BC
                              Wickedness Provokes God's wrath
                              Genesis 6
                              Before 2500 BC
                              The Great Flood
                              Genesis 7
                              Before 2500 BC
                              The Flood Subsides
                              Genesis 8
                              Before 2500 BC
                              Covenant of the Rainbow
                              Genesis 9
                              Before 2500 BC
                              Shem, Ham and Japheth
                              Genesis 10
                              Before 2100 BC
                              Job's Suffering and Faith
                              Job 1 - 42
                              Before 2100 BC
                              The Tower of Babel
                              Genesis 11
                              50,000 years' worth of generations between Noah and Nimrod doesn't sound right to me given that Ham was Nimrod's grandfather according to Genesis 10.
                              I am not sure if this is just dumb or dishonest. In any case I am finished with this discussion. Go claim that you have beaten me.
                              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                                Quite a mixture of YEC and skeptical approaches.

                                The scholarly post you gave me to show your date for the Tower of Babel:
                                http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel


                                http://biblehub.com/timeline/


                                I am not sure if this is just dumb or dishonest. In any case I am finished with this discussion. Go claim that you have beaten me.
                                You must have forgotten you posited an African flood that killed all the unscattered early hominids. That puts your timeline at 50,000 years, no later. You even amen'd King's Gambit's post saying the flood couldn't be any younger since we see people in Australia 50,000 years ago!

                                So there's a bit of a math problem here. If Noah lived 50,000 years ago, and Noah's son Ham begat Cush who begat Nimrod, that's considerably less than 50 millennia.

                                So the African Noah you posited makes no sense. And, yes, I did "beat" at you on this point.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by Starlight, 07-24-2021, 09:58 PM
                                30 responses
                                153 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by seer, 07-20-2021, 12:05 PM
                                170 responses
                                847 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post seer
                                by seer
                                 
                                Started by rogue06, 07-16-2021, 07:39 AM
                                76 responses
                                421 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Mountain Man, 07-05-2021, 04:27 PM
                                74 responses
                                445 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by tabibito, 06-30-2021, 02:53 AM
                                50 responses
                                336 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Working...
                                X