Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Noah - the Clean and the Unclean

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    The fact that laws like the Noahide laws or the Sabbath were given before the Law was given to Moses at Mt. Sinai makes it perfectly reasonable that God had given other commands before then as well. How did Abraham know how to walk before God blamelessly? Or for that matter, how did Noah know how to act righteously and blamelessly? The easy answer is that Noah knew about the distinction between clean and unclean animals because God had either told him or told someone else who told him. Why would God command him to make that distinction on the ark if Noah didn't already know the difference?

    Furthermore, I think there exists the possibility for obvious exceptions to food. If you tell a guest that they are free to eat anything in your fridge, did you give them permission to eat your tupperware and shelves, or are those an obvious exception that didn't need to be mentioned? If you came upon roadkill swarming with flies, do you acknowledge it could be eaten, yet agree that it is in a different category from what you normally consider to be food? The same goes for animals like bats, snakes, lizards, or vultures or with plants like poison ivy. As such, it could easily have been that unclean animals were known as an obvious exception to the other animals that were given to Noah as food.

    ETA:
    There are also some Jews that hold that the Torah preexisted the creation of the world and was sort of like the blueprint that God use to create it.
    Last edited by Soyeong; 03-05-2015, 02:45 AM.
    "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by whag View Post
      I acknowledged that in my post. I said they radiated from Africa to various continents. They didn't all settle where you believe they settled.

      Early human beings were explorers. You deny this amazing evidence?
      I made no claim as to where they settled. I fail to understand that point. Early human beings did become explorers. That was not true at the earliest point according to scripture. They were ultimately "encouraged" to to become explorers according to those stories. A universal, but not global, flood is consistent with that.
      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
        I made no claim as to where they settled. I fail to understand that point. Early human beings did become explorers. That was not true at the earliest point according to scripture. They were ultimately "encouraged" to to become explorers according to those stories. A universal, but not global, flood is consistent with that.
        That makes no sense. The time of the flood would be 4000BC, and we were well distributed across the planet by then.

        Are you proposing that the flood took place in Africa before human beings dispersed 50,000yo? Also, please explain what you mean by "universal flood."

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
          The fact that laws like the Noahide laws or the Sabbath were given before the Law was given to Moses at Mt. Sinai makes it perfectly reasonable that God had given other commands before then as well. How did Abraham know how to walk before God blamelessly? Or for that matter, how did Noah know how to act righteously and blamelessly? The easy answer is that Noah knew about the distinction between clean and unclean animals because God had either told him or told someone else who told him. Why would God command him to make that distinction on the ark if Noah didn't already know the difference?

          Furthermore, I think there exists the possibility for obvious exceptions to food. If you tell a guest that they are free to eat anything in your fridge, did you give them permission to eat your tupperware and shelves, or are those an obvious exception that didn't need to be mentioned? If you came upon roadkill swarming with flies, do you acknowledge it could be eaten, yet agree that it is in a different category from what you normally consider to be food? The same goes for animals like bats, snakes, lizards, or vultures or with plants like poison ivy. As such, it could easily have been that unclean animals were known as an obvious exception to the other animals that were given to Noah as food.

          ETA:
          There are also some Jews that hold that the Torah preexisted the creation of the world and was sort of like the blueprint that God use to create it.
          The far simpler answer is that the clean/unclean aspect is a later addition.
          I'm not here anymore.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by whag View Post
            That makes no sense. The time of the flood would be 4000BC, and we were well distributed across the planet by then.
            Do you have evidence that the flood you do not believe in took place around 4000BC?

            Originally posted by whag View Post
            Are you proposing that the flood took place in Africa before human beings dispersed 50,000yo? Also, please explain what you mean by "universal flood."
            I am proposing that a universal flood (one that killed all humans with the exception of those on the arc, but did not flood the entire globe) might well have taken place at whatever the location of the earliest humans was - Africa seems to be most likely.
            Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

            Comment


            • #66
              The far simpler answer is that the clean/unclean aspect is a later addition.
              It order for that answer to be more reasonable, you need to assume that God did not give any instructions before Mt. Sinai. Not only does the Bible record that He did, it it would have been necessary for God to have given instructions that weren't recorded in order for Noah and Abraham to know how to behave. Furthermore, it is unreasonable to think that all of the laws give to Moses were new to them. A covenant presupposes an already existing relationship that is being made stronger, it does not create a bunch of unexpected new terms that come from nowhere. So to assume that it was a later addition is completely unwarranted.
              "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                Do you have evidence that the flood you do not believe in took place around 4000BC?

                I am proposing that a universal flood (one that killed all humans with the exception of those on the arc, but did not flood the entire globe) might well have taken place at whatever the location of the earliest humans was - Africa seems to be most likely.
                The Persian Gulf is one of several possible areas as it appears that it was mostly dry land during the last Ice Age.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #68
                  Australia was first settled ~40,000-60,000 years ago so a universal (among humanity) flood would have to be at least that old.
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
                    It order for that answer to be more reasonable, you need to assume that God did not give any instructions before Mt. Sinai.
                    No, I don't. I need only assume that God didn't give those instructions. What I don't need to assume is some other interpretation that's not actually supported by the text.


                    Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
                    Not only does the Bible record that He did, it it would have been necessary for God to have given instructions that weren't recorded in order for Noah and Abraham to know how to behave.
                    But not necessarily those instructions.


                    Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
                    Furthermore, it is unreasonable to think that all of the laws give to Moses were new to them.
                    It's not actually unreasonable, but nor is it necessary to hold such a position for my response to be accurate.


                    Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
                    A covenant presupposes an already existing relationship that is being made stronger, it does not create a bunch of unexpected new terms that come from nowhere.
                    The terms of the existing relationship can be extremely varied, though, nor is it abnormal for new terms to be defined and included in a formal covenant. This is pretty common in contract negotiation. They don't have to come from nowhere to be new.


                    Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
                    So to assume that it was a later addition is completely unwarranted.
                    No less unwarranted than making up dinner/not dinner delineations. There are Christians ITT proposing alternative meanings for the clean/not clean distinction. My solution is just as warranted as those.
                    I'm not here anymore.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                      Do you have evidence that the flood you do not believe in took place around 4000BC?
                      Cute, Jedidiah. Holster that sarcasm until you could use it well, k?

                      http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2001/PSCF3-01Hill.html

                      As you can see, most Christians put Noah in that region for well established reasons. It's a rare view that the flood occurred in Africa 50,000yo.

                      Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                      I am proposing that a universal flood (one that killed all humans with the exception of those on the arc, but did not flood the entire globe) might well have taken place at whatever the location of the earliest humans was - Africa seems to be most likely.
                      50,000 years' worth of generations between Noah and Nimrod doesn't sound right to me given that Ham was Nimrod's grandfather according to Genesis 10.

                      The Table of Nations

                      10*This is the account*of Shem, Ham and Japheth,*Noah’s sons,*who themselves had sons after the flood.

                      The Japhethites

                      2*The sons[a]*of Japheth:

                      Gomer,*Magog,*Madai, Javan,*Tubal,*Meshek*and Tiras.

                      3*The sons of Gomer:

                      Ashkenaz,*Riphath and Togarmah.

                      4*The sons of Javan:

                      Elishah,*Tarshish,*the Kittites*and the Rodanites.[b]*5*(From these the maritime peoples spread out into their territories by their clans within their nations, each with its own language.)

                      The Hamites

                      6*The sons of Ham:

                      Cush,*Egypt, Put*and Canaan.

                      7*The sons of Cush:

                      Seba,*Havilah,*Sabtah, Raamah*and Sabteka.

                      The sons of Raamah:

                      Sheba*and Dedan.

                      8*Cush was the father[c]*of Nimrod,

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                        Australia was first settled ~40,000-60,000 years ago so a universal (among humanity) flood would have to be at least that old.
                        Do you see how it's problematic with respect to Babel? If Ham was on the ark, and Nimrod was Ham's grandson, and Nimrod lived during the time that ziggurats were a thing, how then does putting Ham back 40,000 to 60,000 years increase the story's plausibility?

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by whag View Post
                          Cute, Jedidiah. Holster that sarcasm until you could use it well, k?

                          http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2001/PSCF3-01Hill.html

                          As you can see, most Christians put Noah in that region for well established reasons. It's a rare view that the flood occurred in Africa 50,000yo.



                          50,000 years' worth of generations between Noah and Nimrod doesn't sound right to me given that Ham was Nimrod's grandfather according to Genesis 10.
                          Can I apply some of that sarcasm here please.
                          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                            Can I apply some of that sarcasm here please.
                            Not until you explain how 50,000 years could possibly transpire between Ham and Nimrod. =P

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by whag View Post
                              Not until you explain how 50,000 years could possibly transpire between Ham and Nimrod. =P
                              What year was construction on the Tower of Babel started?

                              What year was the flood?
                              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                                What year was construction on the Tower of Babel started?
                                4,000 years ago approx. Definitely not tens of thousands of years ago. There's no ziggurat remnants that date back that far.


                                http://biblehub.com/timeline/


                                Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                                What year was the flood?
                                According to you, when all human beings were in Africa. That'd be 50,000 years ago or longer. We already went over this. You amened KG's post about it.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by Starlight, 07-24-2021, 09:58 PM
                                32 responses
                                157 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by seer, 07-20-2021, 12:05 PM
                                170 responses
                                847 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post seer
                                by seer
                                 
                                Started by rogue06, 07-16-2021, 07:39 AM
                                76 responses
                                421 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Mountain Man, 07-05-2021, 04:27 PM
                                74 responses
                                445 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by tabibito, 06-30-2021, 02:53 AM
                                50 responses
                                336 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Working...
                                X