Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Thoughts on "God and the Gay Christian"?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Thoughts on "God and the Gay Christian"?

    I read God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships by Matthew Vines recently so that I would have something to recommend to conservative Christians curious about how anyone could take the same high view of the Bible and be LGBT affirming.

    The book exceeded my expectations: I now no longer think there needs to be a compromise on typical fundamentalist exegesis in order to be affirming. I've since begun recommending it to conservative Christians and also people who interact with conservative Christians on this topic.

    Curious whether anyone here has read it and what their reactions might be.
    Last edited by seasanctuary; 02-20-2015, 01:16 PM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by seasanctuary View Post
    I read God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships by Matthew Vines recently so that I would have something to recommend to conservative Christians curious about how anyone could take the same high view of the Bible and be LGBT affirming.

    The book exceeded my expectations: I now no longer think there needs to compromise on typical fundamentalist exegesis in order to be affirming. I've since begun recommending it to conservative Christians and also people who interact with conservative Christians on this topic.

    Curious whether anyone here has read it and what their reactions might be.

    Comment


    • #3
      I haven't read it. What's the gist of the argument? The bible seems pretty clear on the topic in several places.

      (Being Gay isn't the problem, by the way, it is acting on it.)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        I haven't read it. What's the gist of the argument? The bible seems pretty clear on the topic in several places.

        (Being Gay isn't the problem, by the way, it is acting on it.)
        Is cuddling okay? What if someone doesn't have the libido for traditional expression but acts out her homosexuality relationally, sans sex?

        This is a very ambiguous topic because of biology and the complexity of human relations. We're still discussing it today precisely because Paul didn't understand that complexity.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          I haven't read it. What's the gist of the argument? The bible seems pretty clear on the topic in several places.
          There are a few major lines of argument. The primary one is in the form of a dilemma: contemporary Christians must either adjust their views on committed same-sex relationships or their views on chastity. He highlights Biblical, early Church, and medieval views on chastity as virtuous when it is an individual choice to be chaste instead of marry...and not a virtue that everyone is gifted with. Christians with exclusively same-sex orientation are expected to exercise this virtue outside of it's proper context as a choice for someone so gifted.

          There is also a great deal of attention paid to the traditional "proof texts" as not condemning committed same-sex relationships, plus a look at what marriage is about in a Biblical context and how same-sex relationships can fulfill this essential purpose.

          It's a great book rhetorically because it provides motivation for rethinking an issue, historical examples of how issues have been rethought when new information came to light, answers to negative arguments, and positive arguments of its own. It's all done with a conservative view of scriptural inspiration so it can speak to conservatives in the way hand-waving from more liberal Christians does not.

          Comment


          • #6
            Christopher Yuan (www.christopheryuan.com) is co-author, with his mother, of Out of a Far Country: A Gay Son's Journey to God, A Broken Mother's Search for Hope (WaterBrook Press). He teaches the Bible at Moody Bible Institute and has an international speaking ministry. He penned a review on the book for Christianity Today:

            http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/...lationshi.html

            And he basically concludes that "... the approach that Vines suggests—grace at the expense of truth—also misses the mark. It overlooks the theology of suffering and gives us Christ without the Cross. Jesus, who personifies love, came full of grace and full of truth (John 1:14)."
            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            Stephen R. Donaldson

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by whag View Post
              This is a very ambiguous topic because of biology and the complexity of human relations. We're still discussing it today precisely because Paul didn't understand that complexity.
              There is no reason Paul would have to understand anything of that sort. The inspiration tells us that God understands. That is more than adequate.
              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Seasantuary
                There are a few major lines of argument. The primary one is in the form of a dilemma: contemporary Christians must either adjust their views on committed same-sex relationships or their views on chastity. He highlights Biblical, early Church, and medieval views on chastity as virtuous when it is an individual choice to be chaste instead of marry...and not a virtue that everyone is gifted with. Christians with exclusively same-sex orientation are expected to exercise this virtue outside of it's proper context as a choice for someone so gifted.
                as far as chastity goes, Christian doctrine is clear that sex outside of marriage, or with someone else's spouse is a sin. Just like homosexual behavior is.

                If someone revels in a "sexual freedom" kind of lifestyle, having sex outside of marriage or committing adultery and claiming it's all OK and not a sin, while claiming to be a Christian, then they are fooling themselves. As far as remaining chaste, unmarried Christians are expected to remain chaste. If they cannot live that way then they should get married so as not to sin. It doesn't say that if you can't handle being chaste and unmarried then it is OK to have sex.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                  There is no reason Paul would have to understand anything of that sort. The inspiration tells us that God understands. That is more than adequate.
                  "Inspiration" itself is ambiguous. You also have to consider general and progressive revelation, which are real things in your religion and fuel discussions like this.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    as far as chastity goes, Christian doctrine is clear that sex outside of marriage, or with someone else's spouse is a sin. Just like homosexual behavior is.

                    If someone revels in a "sexual freedom" kind of lifestyle, having sex outside of marriage or committing adultery and claiming it's all OK and not a sin, while claiming to be a Christian, then they are fooling themselves. As far as remaining chaste, unmarried Christians are expected to remain chaste. If they cannot live that way then they should get married so as not to sin. It doesn't say that if you can't handle being chaste and unmarried then it is OK to have sex.
                    It gets really ambiguous when you consider the multiple wives and concubines of Israel's kings. David and Solomon entered many gardens.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                      Christopher Yuan (www.christopheryuan.com) is co-author, with his mother, of Out of a Far Country: A Gay Son's Journey to God, A Broken Mother's Search for Hope (WaterBrook Press). He teaches the Bible at Moody Bible Institute and has an international speaking ministry. He penned a review on the book for Christianity Today
                      Thank you, Bill. My review of the review is that Yaun does not do a good job of engaging Vines. There's a lot of claiming Vines is ignoring context, that Vines quotes people who hold suspect opinions in other areas, or that Vines quotes people who are LGBT affirming. This is the sort of vague mud that's easy to throw at anyone.

                      When Yaun does talk about specifics, he doesn't seem to understand how Vines was using things in his rhetoric. For example, Vines does invoke the notion of what kind of fruit a tree produces to suggest that the negative effects of anti-LGBT doctrines are a reason to carefully examine whether such doctrines are essential. Vines brings that up as a reason to start a discussion, not a reason to end the discussion. Or when Yaun says that "our identity should not be placed in anything (such as our sexuality, gender, or race) other than Jesus Christ," I boggled at how he apparently missed how Vines made similar comments. Nor did Vines accuse God of "not understand[ing] sexual orientation." Vines uses the example of people with purely same-sex orientation in his chastity dilemma, but at no point does he claim that everyone with some same-sex orientation is exclusively that way.

                      The review struck me as a long way of saying "you're taking things out of context," without doing the work of showing how. Yaun gets the most specific about the word "arsenokoitai" but, again, mischaracterizes the way Vines handles it. It's not that Vines was claiming the word had nothing to do with sexual sin, but that it's most likely about a type of sin that combines sexuality and economic exploitation--maybe prostitution or sexual blackmail--because it so often appears in blended contexts of that nature. Committed same-sex relationships would not fall into that category.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Some time back I watched the video and read the transcript thereof which endeared him to the liberal Christians. If the book is similar, it isn't worth much.

                        Vine's only strengths are his rhetoric and his youthful age, which makes him such a useful tool to sway the young Christians: "Look, a fellow young, articulate and intelligent Christian who has a high view of Scripture and demonstrates how homosexual relationships are not condemned by Scripture!"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          as far as chastity goes, Christian doctrine is clear that sex outside of marriage, or with someone else's spouse is a sin.
                          To clarify, he's talking about marriage relationships.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by seasanctuary View Post
                            To clarify, he's talking about marriage relationships.
                            I am just going by what you posted.
                            He highlights Biblical, early Church, and medieval views on chastity as virtuous when it is an individual choice to be chaste instead of marry...and not a virtue that everyone is gifted with.
                            Biblically sex is supposed to be only in a marriage and between a man and woman. Everyone else should remain chaste. No not everyone is gifted with the willpower to remain unmarried and chaste, but that is what is expected if they remain unmarried. That is why the bible says that if they can't handle it, then they should get married so as not to sin.


                            1 Cor 7:8 Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              I am just going by what you posted.


                              Biblically sex is supposed to be only in a marriage and between a man and woman. Everyone else should remain chaste. No not everyone is gifted with the willpower to remain unmarried and chaste, but that is what is expected if they remain unmarried. That is why the bible says that if they can't handle it, then they should get married so as not to sin.


                              1 Cor 7:8 Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
                              That's terrible advice and a good recipe for a failed marriage. It completely ignores the fact that men with high libido might have a psychological and/or physical problem that marriage won't cure.

                              I'm reminded of the documentary on women with clitoral blood flow problems, 100 Orgasms a Day:

                              http://youtu.be/_F_u1Y-9MaQ

                              The point being that Paul's advice seems to be only for men. Consider the multitude of reasons men have "passion problems."

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by lee_merrill, 10-30-2020, 09:01 PM
                              28 responses
                              115 views
                              2 likes
                              Last Post thormas
                              by thormas
                               
                              Started by lee_merrill, 10-24-2020, 07:58 PM
                              13 responses
                              62 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Gondwanaland  
                              Started by Whateverman, 07-26-2020, 11:01 AM
                              330 responses
                              6,601 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Electric Skeptic  
                              Started by shunyadragon, 09-09-2016, 03:27 PM
                              1,238 responses
                              54,947 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post thormas
                              by thormas
                               
                              Working...
                              X