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Secular Morality?

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  • #76
    Sorry I took such a long time to respond.

    Originally posted by Enjolras View Post
    Why should you be good? You should be good for it's own sake, and because you'd like to live in a society where others are kind to you.
    Ok. But what about if I want to get rich from the drug trade? Or be a pimp? Or get rich from child labour? Or even slavery today? A fair bit of the activities involved in these endeavors are not certainly not good in either of our opinions. As for the social benefits of being helpful and kind to others, you could lead a double life and get the best of both worlds. S

    Is the only reason you are good because you think God is watching you? Would you immediately resort to murder the moment you thought there was no God?
    Never. I'm not that way by nature. That being said, there are people who can kill others without caring that much (such as slavemasters in the Americas in the 18th and 19th centuries). Also, I could have engaged in things like stealing without much guilt (though I cant do that now due to Christianity).

    Imagine you go out to a nice restaurant and notice 2 other tables. At one, the father excuses himself go to to the restroom. He warns the kids to behave while he's gone or he will beat the daylights out of them when he returns. At the other table, the father excuses himself as well, but instead of threatening punishment he tells the children to be considerate of others in the same way they would like to be treated themselves. Both sets of children obey.

    Let me ask, which of these sets of children has a deeper, better understanding of morality?
    I think that :
    -threatening to beat your children like that is wrong
    .

    That being said, the one who has the "deeper, better understanding of morality" is the one who understands what oughts and ought nots are. God has given humanity purpose and our commandment to fulfill that purpose is to love one another (therefore, the commandment is an ought). You ought to do something because you have a duty to Christ, which entails a duty towards others (or "do to others as you would have them do to you"). Since the second child is following that rule, he appears to have a "deeper, better understanding of morality." We will be shut out of his presence if we do not obey but we should obey not due to punishment, but because we have a duty (i.e. we ought to be good)

    Finally, here's a couple videos on hell that show what it is like.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-q5v...F40C5A0CF5C113

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbIv...iM4GLw&index=2
    -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
    Sir James Jeans

    -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
    Sir Isaac Newton

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Enjolras View Post
      At some point, we all reach a point of explanatory bedrock when it comes justifying our moral views or our views on just about anything else. I can't give a further reason why harming others is wrong if you don't accept that as a fundamental truth. But neither can you give a further reason as to why one should think God is to be obeyed. The advantage of secular morality, as has been pointed out already, is that you don't have to add additional considerations that must also be accepted as fundamental. There is a principle of parsimony at work in secular reasoning which theism cannot provide.
      Except without God there no fundamental moral truth, just moral opinion - subjective and relative. You are free to appeal to Ockham's razor, but then you have thrown out the baby with the bath water. Like I have been saying "secular morality" is meaningless when defining right or wrong.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        If there is no God there can be no objective definition for good, just personal or cultural preference. And those preference and completely subjective and rather meaningless.


        You can't have an "objective definition for good", because the definitions of all words, in any language, are a product of social consensus. What you could do is look at whether the thing that society uses the word "good" to refer to is objectively measurable or not. For example, what "beauty" refers to is subjective, because even once you understand what the society means by their word 'beauty' that doesn't necessarily mean there will be a high level of agreement on what is beautiful and what isn't. Whereas what "1 mile" refers to is an objective reality - once you understand the definition of the word you have ways to reach agreement on what things are a mile in length and what things aren't.

        Most societies in world history would understand the concept of trying to conform to God's laws, since most of them worshiped some kind of God(s), although their ideas of how they thought their God(s) had told them to behave would be wildly different to each other. Whereas every society in the world history would understand the concept of "treating others well". So the concept of morality as being about treating others well is far more objective than is any idea of trying to follow whatever one perceives to be "God's commands" (which vary wildly based on what personal religion you've chosen to adhere to).
        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          Except without God there no fundamental moral truth, just moral opinion - subjective and relative. You are free to appeal to Ockham's razor, but then you have thrown out the baby with the bath water. Like I have been saying "secular morality" is meaningless when defining right or wrong.
          We are all in the same boat, seer. Even God's opinion is just that...another opinion.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Enjolras View Post
            We are all in the same boat, seer. Even God's opinion is just that...another opinion.
            Except it is a an opinion based in an immutable moral character, and omniscience. And it is an ethical opinion by which we all will be judged, which means we live in a just universe - not your amoral and ultimately meaningless cosmos.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              Except it is a an opinion based in an immutable moral character, and omniscience.
              Quite a lot of Christians tend to be a little vague on whether morality exists externally to God and he simply knows about it via his omniscience, or whether it stems from God himself and his own moral character (ie whatever his moral character happens to be, defines 'good'). Your statement appears to be rather ambiguously endorsing both views at once...?

              And it is an ethical opinion by which we all will be judged, which means we live in a just universe
              Or potentially an unjust universe...? What happens if God's standard of judgement turns out to suck? Then lots of people are going to call it an unjust universe. In the views of some theologians, about 90% of the human race is destined to eternally burn in hell in painful torment. I recall that you, personally, do not buy into the 'standard' Christian teaching on the nature of hell (possibly because you view it as unjust?), but imagine for a moment that the standard evangelical fundamentalists turn out to be right and God painfully barbecues the majority of humanity for eternity due to their failure to believe in Jesus... do you think (a) all those people will be extremely pleased to be living in a just universe? or (b) all those people will be very unhappy with what they perceive to be the unjust nature of the universe?

              not your amoral and ultimately meaningless cosmos.
              Humans create their own meaning just fine. Many different things in my life have very significant meaning to me. My family and friends and the events in their lives are very very meaningful to me.

              Of course, different things are meaningful to different people. What someone on the opposite side of the world finds very, very, meaningful to them, I likely wouldn't care about and wouldn't find at all meaningful to me. So imagining that The Cosmos itself has some sort of built-in 'meaning', why would I care or find it meaningful to me?
              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                Except without God there no fundamental moral truth, just moral opinion - subjective and relative. You are free to appeal to Ockham's razor, but then you have thrown out the baby with the bath water. Like I have been saying "secular morality" is meaningless when defining right or wrong.
                Morality is a derivative of self-preservation and procreation in every case and is a consequence of natural selection. Despite individual variations an instinctive sense of right and wrong behaviour has been built into us via natural selection, because such instincts were beneficial to the breeding and survival of our species as social animals. We are not separate from our evolved biological make-up - we are social beings who are genetically predisposed towards group behaviour and this long pre-dates the invention of any deities.
                Last edited by Tassman; 02-22-2015, 03:58 AM.
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                  Morality is a derivative of self-preservation and procreation in every case and is a consequence of natural selection. Despite individual variations an instinctive sense of right and wrong behaviour has been built into us via natural selection, because such instincts were beneficial to the breeding and survival of our species as social animals. We are not separate from our evolved biological make-up - we are social beings who are genetically predisposed towards group behaviour and this long pre-dates the invention of any deities.
                  Yes and we are also predisposed to greed, murder, selfishness, and slaughtering our fellow man.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                    Eojolras, where did you get the idea that murdering babies is wrong? Many of the ancients had no problems with killing babies and in fact... the idea that life is precious (aka the sanity of life) is actually an ideal developed from Christian doctrine that became a standard of western culture and morality. How do you escape the circularity that your own moral opinions are based upon the very things you condemn as being wrong and/or immoral? IE Christian doctrines and values.
                    And my point is ignored... how amusing. So much for that 'honest debate' skeptics talk about.
                    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                      Quite a lot of Christians tend to be a little vague on whether morality exists externally to God and he simply knows about it via his omniscience, or whether it stems from God himself and his own moral character (ie whatever his moral character happens to be, defines 'good'). Your statement appears to be rather ambiguously endorsing both views at once...?
                      No SL, I'm not ambiguous at all. God's law is born from His immutable moral character. My point about His omniscience is this: He would know all counter factuals, He could know the future and know what would happen if He allowed or disallowed A or B. So He takes the greater good into consideration. My position on this is Molinism.

                      Or potentially an unjust universe...? What happens if God's standard of judgement turns out to suck? Then lots of people are going to call it an unjust universe. In the views of some theologians, about 90% of the human race is destined to eternally burn in hell in painful torment. I recall that you, personally, do not buy into the 'standard' Christian teaching on the nature of hell (possibly because you view it as unjust?), but imagine for a moment that the standard evangelical fundamentalists turn out to be right and God painfully barbecues the majority of humanity for eternity due to their failure to believe in Jesus... do you think (a) all those people will be extremely pleased to be living in a just universe? or (b) all those people will be very unhappy with what they perceive to be the unjust nature of the universe?
                      Let's say that eternal torment is a fact (though you rightly said it is not my position). On what possible ground could you or I call that unjust? Based on what?


                      Humans create their own meaning just fine. Many different things in my life have very significant meaning to me. My family and friends and the events in their lives are very very meaningful to me.
                      Sure you create your meaning, Stalin his, Mao his, the Hutus theirs, etc...
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                        And my point is ignored... how amusing. So much for that 'honest debate' skeptics talk about.
                        I'm not interested in discussing anything with you. I don't find your 'style' useful or productive.
                        Last edited by Enjolras; 02-22-2015, 09:16 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Enjolras View Post
                          I'm not interested in discussing anything with you. I don't find your 'style' useful or productive.
                          Perhaps I could copy your style, in which you flip flop positions, without admitting you were wrong in any way, instead? I understand, you can't refute it, so blame others for your failure. Typical fundy atheist...
                          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Enjolras View Post
                            I'm not interested in discussing anything with you. I don't find your 'style' useful or productive.
                            I don't find your or whag's disingenious debating style useful or productive either, but I still think it's worthwhile to engage guys like you from time to time.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                              I don't find your or whag's disingenious debating style useful or productive either, but I still think it's worthwhile to engage guys like you from time to time.
                              It's just his way of trying to sound morally superior, without actually being superior in any way. Notice that he doesn't even bother to show how I am wrong and just goes right for the ad hominem fallacy and thus proves which one of us has the better arguments (for the JimL's of the world, it isn't Enjolras). Yet another self satisfied elitist, who looks down his nose at everybody (while sipping from his over priced Starbucks latte), but actually has nothing to show for his self satisfied elitist attitude.
                              Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 02-22-2015, 10:22 AM.
                              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                God's law is born from His immutable moral character. My point about His omniscience is this: He would know all counter factuals,
                                All right, thanks for being clear.

                                Let's say that eternal torment is a fact (though you rightly said it is not my position). On what possible ground could you or I call that unjust? Based on what?
                                Well a symbol of 'justice' throughout human history has been balanced scales. The idea is that when justice is dealt out that the punishment is proportional to the crime. Hell being an infinite punishment cannot be proportional to any crime, and therefore cannot be just. A lot of Christians struggle with the concept of hell precisely because they realize that infinite punishment can't possibly be 'just'. (Of course, various fundamentalist theologians would claim "God is infinite, therefore any crime against him is infinite and thus deserves infinite punishment", which I regarded as laughable even when I was a Christian. And yes, I was one of those Christians who had a serious issue with the evangelical version of hell.)

                                Sure you create your meaning, Stalin his, Mao his, the Hutus theirs, etc...
                                Absolutely yes. I would never claim that what is meaningful to people is objective. Unlike morality, what is meaningful to people is entirely subjective.
                                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                                Comment

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