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Exoplanetary Falls?

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  • Exoplanetary Falls?

    The Bible describes human beings falling early. We went wrong fast, according to it, no matter what anthropological view you hold to. We began killing each other immediately, with no peaceful break between our transition from ape to human being. We were fornicating and carving Venus of Willendorfs tens of thousands of years ago.

    I'm thinking about that a lot lately. If Christianity is true AND intelligent life arose elsewhere, can we assume that that humanoid species underwent the same obstacles and pressures that we did? That means they contended with Satan, endured predation, disease, floods, etc. Or is it possible such a species wouldn't be exposed to God's enemy and natural evil and, thus, have an advantage?

    I think that if intelligence evolved elsewhere and was exposed to qualitatively synonymous challenges that we faced, I think a fall would happen quickly. I don't mean literal "eating from a tree in Eden." I mean a fall more concordant with current evidence: hominids struggling on the earth warring over territory and stuff. If that was the fall, wouldn't that occur on all planets with a similar evolutionary pattern wherein a dumb species transitions into an intelligent species?

    Falls seem to be inevitable so long as the exoplanetary species developed and interacted in the same environment. Genesis' putting the fall on the "first couple" seems to implicitly convey the inevitability of human beings expressing evil in some way. Why? Because even the first ones couldn't manage it. Does anyone find that part interesting?

    Sometimes I feel like Dana Carvey when I talk about this. I'm actually thinking about it because my sister tells me about her UFO sightings. She sees them a lot, and it's making me think (I don't believe her in the traditional sense, but I don't think she's lying).
    Last edited by whag; 02-05-2015, 10:04 PM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by whag View Post
    The Bible describes human beings falling early. We went wrong fast, according to it, no matter what anthropological view you hold to. We began killing each other immediately, with no peaceful break between our transition from ape to human being. We were fornicating and carving Venus of Willendorfs tens of thousands of years ago.
    I think what the Bible generally means about humans "falling" is that at some point, sexuality became equated with sinfulness. Recall the Genesis story makes a point of revealing Adam and Eve's "nakedness." I think that prior to these groups who began identifying sex as sin (maybe these were the guys who weren't "getting any?"), sexuality was viewed as normal, and happened pretty much spontaneously, ala; Quest for Fire. The prevalence of "Venus" figurines in paleolithic cultures would seem to support this hypothesis.

    Of course, once the model for "sin" is created, anything that deviates from acceptable social norms can be so classified. Religions hone these fears and suspicions into dogmatic decrees and formalized prohibitions, banishment and punishments.

    Originally posted by whag View Post
    I'm thinking about that a lot lately. If Christianity is true AND intelligent life arose elsewhere, can we [A]assume that that humanoid species underwent the same obstacles and pressures that we did? That means they contended with Satan, endured predation, disease, floods, etc. Or [B] is it possible such a species wouldn't be exposed to God's enemy and natural evil and, thus, have an advantage?
    Well, if you follow the narrative in the Tanakh, it would appear it could have gone either way. So, I would say: Part B.


    Originally posted by whag View Post
    ...Falls seem to be inevitable so long as the exoplanetary species developed and interacted in the same environment. Genesis' putting the fall on the "first couple" seems to implicitly convey the inevitability of human beings expressing evil in some way. Why? Because even the first ones couldn't manage it. Does anyone find that part interesting?
    Yes, a convenient "fall from grace" that needs a religious solution.


    Originally posted by whag View Post
    Sometimes I feel like Dana Carvey when I talk about this. I'm actually thinking about it because my sister tells me about her UFO sightings. She sees them a lot, and it's making me think (I don't believe her in the traditional sense, but I don't think she's lying).
    A long time ago, I experimented with hallucinogens like LSD, Psilocybin and Peyote. You can only imagine how powerful the mind is at creating imagery that is not really there, but is so convincing that you would swear on your life that what you were seeing was real. I don't doubt for a second that your sister is convinced that what she is seeing is real. Just like Seer with his floating ferns.

    NORM
    When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by NormATive View Post
      A long time ago, I experimented with hallucinogens like LSD, Psilocybin and Peyote.
      Long as in 10 minutes ago?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by whag View Post
        Falls seem to be inevitable .....
        I agree, but... Death (it is associated with The Fall and corruption) would seem to be an essential part of evolution. Christianity has it backwards (as usual) – Adam – The Fall – therefore Death. In fact, the reality is Death (The Fall) therefore Adam. Based on our own experience, predation and how to avoid it are again aspects of biological systems capable of leading to Adam’s. Without that violent nature (that we try to tame) we would not be here at all.
        “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
        “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
        “not all there” - you know who you are

        Comment


        • #5
          I think CS Lewis' Perelandra series dealt with the theme of non-human life on other planets in relation to the fall here on Earth....but I haven't read the book myself, I just think I heard that before.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by whag View Post
            The Bible describes human beings falling early. We went wrong fast, according to it, no matter what anthropological view you hold to. We began killing each other immediately, with no peaceful break between our transition from ape to human being. We were fornicating and carving Venus of Willendorfs tens of thousands of years ago.

            I'm thinking about that a lot lately. If Christianity is true AND intelligent life arose elsewhere, can we assume that that humanoid species underwent the same obstacles and pressures that we did? That means they contended with Satan, endured predation, disease, floods, etc. Or is it possible such a species wouldn't be exposed to God's enemy and natural evil and, thus, have an advantage?

            I think that if intelligence evolved elsewhere and was exposed to qualitatively synonymous challenges that we faced, I think a fall would happen quickly. I don't mean literal "eating from a tree in Eden." I mean a fall more concordant with current evidence: hominids struggling on the earth warring over territory and stuff. If that was the fall, wouldn't that occur on all planets with a similar evolutionary pattern wherein a dumb species transitions into an intelligent species?

            Falls seem to be inevitable so long as the exoplanetary species developed and interacted in the same environment. Genesis' putting the fall on the "first couple" seems to implicitly convey the inevitability of human beings expressing evil in some way. Why? Because even the first ones couldn't manage it. Does anyone find that part interesting?

            Sometimes I feel like Dana Carvey when I talk about this. I'm actually thinking about it because my sister tells me about her UFO sightings. She sees them a lot, and it's making me think (I don't believe her in the traditional sense, but I don't think she's lying).
            Trying to make Genesis and the concept of the 'Fall' and Original Sin fit anything rational, historical or scientific is more then a rather contorted affair. The Christian Biblical view is that the 'Fall' was not inevitable, but the fault of Adam and Eve falling to temptation, and thus cursed all humanity for all future generations with 'Original Sin.' This view fits ancient ANE world views where the sins of the generations may be inherited by later generations, but it is an anachronism of ancients that does not fit today except in a vain effort to justify outdated traditional beliefs. CS Lewis's efforts to make it fit is naïve and represents common modern attempts to deal with it in futility. These concepts are deeply rooted in the fundamental foundation theology of Christianity, and cannot be explained away.
            Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-06-2015, 08:44 AM.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Manwë Súlimo View Post
              I think CS Lewis' Perelandra series dealt with the theme of non-human life on other planets in relation to the fall here on Earth....but I haven't read the book myself, I just think I heard that before.
              I once tried to read that book at the recommendation of my wife but lost interest for some reason. I might try to the audio book now.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by whag View Post
                The Bible describes human beings falling early. We went wrong fast, according to it, no matter what anthropological view you hold to. We began killing each other immediately, with no peaceful break between our transition from ape to human being. We were fornicating and carving Venus of Willendorfs tens of thousands of years ago.

                I'm thinking about that a lot lately. If Christianity is true AND intelligent life arose elsewhere, can we assume that that humanoid species underwent the same obstacles and pressures that we did? That means they contended with Satan, endured predation, disease, floods, etc. Or is it possible such a species wouldn't be exposed to God's enemy and natural evil and, thus, have an advantage?

                I think that if intelligence evolved elsewhere and was exposed to qualitatively synonymous challenges that we faced, I think a fall would happen quickly. I don't mean literal "eating from a tree in Eden." I mean a fall more concordant with current evidence: hominids struggling on the earth warring over territory and stuff. If that was the fall, wouldn't that occur on all planets with a similar evolutionary pattern wherein a dumb species transitions into an intelligent species?

                Falls seem to be inevitable so long as the exoplanetary species developed and interacted in the same environment. Genesis' putting the fall on the "first couple" seems to implicitly convey the inevitability of human beings expressing evil in some way. Why? Because even the first ones couldn't manage it. Does anyone find that part interesting?

                Sometimes I feel like Dana Carvey when I talk about this. I'm actually thinking about it because my sister tells me about her UFO sightings. She sees them a lot, and it's making me think (I don't believe her in the traditional sense, but I don't think she's lying).
                Was it even a “fall” or was it more a transition?

                The bible does not call it a fall, so why should we?

                When your child sins for the first time do you see it as a fall from grace, or part of maturing?

                Yes, we did obtain “knowledge” (a conscience), but is knowledge in and of itself bad?

                Adam and Eve’s sinning was inevitable, but did sin have purpose for them and does it have purpose for man?

                Is sin the problem or is it only unforgiven sin that is a problem?

                Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your personal ability to obey God (the Garden) or in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your humbly accepting God’s help (Charity) where you are right now?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by whag View Post
                  If Christianity is true AND intelligent life arose elsewhere, can we assume that that humanoid species underwent the same obstacles and pressures that we did?
                  There is no basis for assuming anything at all. The Christian story applies to this world and this world alone. As far as we know, the people who developed the Christian account of human origins had no inkling that other worlds even existed, let alone that there could be intelligent beings on them. Even if we assume that God inspired the Bible, it is manifestly a message only to us and only about us, not anybody else.

                  Our curiosity about other worlds is entirely justified, but the Bible cannot satisfy it.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by bling View Post
                    Was it even a “fall” or was it more a transition?

                    The bible does not call it a fall, so why should we?

                    When your child sins for the first time do you see it as a fall from grace, or part of maturing?

                    Yes, we did obtain “knowledge” (a conscience), but is knowledge in and of itself bad?

                    Adam and Eve’s sinning was inevitable, but did sin have purpose for them and does it have purpose for man?

                    Is sin the problem or is it only unforgiven sin that is a problem?

                    Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your personal ability to obey God (the Garden) or in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your humbly accepting God’s help (Charity) where you are right now?
                    The OT, of course, is not specific as to the Fall or Original Sin. Judaism has no concept of the Fall or Original Sin in their belief system. This understanding comes in in the NT, where this becomes part of the doctrine and dogma of traditional Christianity.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                      Long as in 10 minutes ago?
                      You should try it, Scrawly. You seem to be a bit uptight. You would be amazed at the creative ability within your own mind.

                      NORM
                      When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by bling View Post
                        Was it even a “fall” or was it more a transition?

                        The bible does not call it a fall, so why should we?

                        When your child sins for the first time do you see it as a fall from grace, or part of maturing?

                        Yes, we did obtain “knowledge” (a conscience), but is knowledge in and of itself bad?

                        Adam and Eve’s sinning was inevitable, but did sin have purpose for them and does it have purpose for man?

                        Is sin the problem or is it only unforgiven sin that is a problem?

                        Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your personal ability to obey God (the Garden) or in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your humbly accepting God’s help (Charity) where you are right now?
                        Pete Enns subscribes to this view. I think it's much more realistic than the original sin view.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                          There is no basis for assuming anything at all. The Christian story applies to this world and this world alone. As far as we know, the people who developed the Christian account of human origins had no inkling that other worlds even existed, let alone that there could be intelligent beings on them. Even if we assume that God inspired the Bible, it is manifestly a message only to us and only about us, not anybody else.

                          Our curiosity about other worlds is entirely justified, but the Bible cannot satisfy it.
                          I wonder why God wouldn't end the world before all these trippy discoveries about evolution and the possibility of extraterrestrial intelligent life with the capacity to sin arose. That puts a whole new layer of complexity on belief that doesn't seem needed.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            The OT, of course, is not specific as to the Fall or Original Sin. Judaism has no concept of the Fall or Original Sin in their belief system. This understanding comes in in the NT, where this becomes part of the doctrine and dogma of traditional Christianity.
                            Does that make it the correct understanding?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by bling View Post
                              Does that make it the correct understanding?
                              Well . . . ah it has been the traditional Christian understanding based on the NT, for almost 2000 years. The logical end point of your reasoning is nothing in the NT may be the correct understanding. This becomes the minefield of selective citations of the NT to justify what one wants to believe, and alas thousands of different churches.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment

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