Miracles

[seer]

Both mountain biker and you are fallible human beings.

There was no question about what we saw Homer.

[shunyadragon]

So you do believe in miracles. So you are actually opposed to Tass' position.

Tass said:There is no good reason to think that these “miracles” don’t have a natural explanation, even if it's not understood at this stage. They are all anecdotal and none have occurred under controlled circumstances, which suggest they are probably faith-conditioned wishful thinking rather than miracles

You don't agree with that Shuny, since you do believe in actual miracles.

You still have failed to read my post and respond.

To put it briefly All of Creation is natural and miracles are simply the natural not understood.

[seer]

You still have failed to read my post and respond.

The reason I did not respond to your post Shuny is because you are again trying to have it both ways. Your view certainly does not correspond to Tass' So again, is the following a miracle Shuny? Yes or no?

‘Abdu’l-Bahá speaks of one of the greatest miracles of Bahá’u’lláh in prison in these words: "And this is one of Bahá’u’lláh’s greatest miracles: that He, a captive, surrounded Himself with panoply and He wielded power. The prison changed into a palace, the jail itself became a Garden of Eden. Such a thing has not occurred in history before; no former age has seen its like: that a man confined to a prison should move about with authority and might; that one in chains should carry the fame of the Cause of God to the high heavens, should win splendid victories in both East and West, and should, by His almighty pen, subdue the world. Such is the distinguishing feature of this supreme Theophany

[shunyadragon]

The reason I did not respond to your post Shuny is because you are again trying to have it both ways. Your view certainly does not correspond to Tass' So again, is the following a miracle Shuny? Yes or no?

To put it briefly All of Creation is natural and miracles are simply the natural not understood. What was described in the reference is not a perceived miracle like seeing a fern floating above the ground. There was not a literal miraculous change of the prison into a garden or mansion.

You need to read your own references. No, you have not read nor responded to my first complete reference and post.

[Scrawly]

There is no good reason to think that these “miracles” don’t have a natural explanation, even if it's not understood at this stage.

So God is ruled out a priori?

They are all anecdotal and none have occurred under controlled circumstances

Based upon your a priori rejection of supernatural intervention as even a possibility, I highly doubt a controlled experiment would sway you in any way.

which suggest they are probably faith-conditioned wishful thinking rather than miracles.

Actually many people converted because of the supposed miracles.

it's worth noting that Keener is a NT scholar, not a qualified member of the health profession.

What about the numerous cases where health care professionals were involved before and after the miraculous healing?

In fact there are many instances of spontaneous remissions, misdiagnoses and placebo effects.

True, but this fact can't be extrapolated to dismissively hand wave the miraculous cases in question.

There are also many accounts of relapses of the condition after the so-called miracle healing – especially those of the hyped-up, emotionally charged Benny Hinn type.

See above.

[pancreasman]

There is I think a philosophical problem for Christians regarding miracles. It is often said in debates about the modern scientific revolution that Christianity is foundational to it since it puts the idea that the universe is regular and consistent.

Miracles OTOH posit a universe where God may intervene against natural law whenever he so chooses. These tow ideas seem contradictory to me. How can we, for example, study cancer rates in patients if miraculous hearings muddy the data?

The only solution that occurs to me is that such miracles must be very rare statistically. Why then do Christians pray so fervently (and in such large numbers) for healing?

[NormATive]

The following is a lecture given by Dr. Craig Keener on the topic of supposed modern day miracles. I am interested in the skeptical response to these reports. If you do not believe that supernatural healing by God is involved here, what exactly do you think is going on? Please watch the video before commenting:

LOL!

I feel sorry for those whose worldview demands that one suspend the laws of physics and common sense in order to be "true."

Why don't you submit these "miracles" to the Million Dollar Challenge: http://web.randi.org/the-million-dollar-challenge.html

I wouldn't recommend it for the following reason:

1.2 How many people have applied for the Challenge?

Between 1964 and 1982, Randi declared that over 650 people had applied. Between 1997 and 2005, there had been a total of 360 official, notarized applications. New applications for the Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge continue to be received every month.

1.3 Has anyone ever passed the preliminary test?

No.

NORM

[seer]

To put it briefly All of Creation is natural and miracles are simply the natural not understood. What was described in the reference is not a perceived miracle like seeing a fern floating above the ground.

You need to read your own references. No, you have not read nor responded to my first complete reference and post.

How do you know that they are natural? You own Faith calls them miracles by name. And how is this: The prison changed into a palace, the jail itself became a Garden of Eden not a miracle?

[seer]

LOL!

I feel sorry for those whose worldview demands that one suspend the laws of physics and common sense in order to be "true."

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/poll-do-...e-in-miracles/

Belief in miracles is pervasive -- nearly 8 in 10 Americans say they believe in miracles, and 19 percent are non-believers. Personal religious beliefs have an impact on whether or not people believe in miracles.

It seems that belief in miracles is quite common. It looks like skeptics like you are the odd balls.

[NormATive]

It seems that belief in miracles is quite common. It looks like skeptics like you are the odd balls.

Nine out of ten children believe in Santa Clause, too.

NORM

[pancreasman]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/poll-do-...e-in-miracles/



It seems that belief in miracles is quite common. It looks like skeptics like you are the odd balls.

Well, they are Americans.

[Carrikature]

The only solution that occurs to me is that such miracles must be very rare statistically. Why then do Christians pray so fervently (and in such large numbers) for healing?

Any port in a storm?

[JonathanL]

There is I think a philosophical problem for Christians regarding miracles. It is often said in debates about the modern scientific revolution that Christianity is foundational to it since it puts the idea that the universe is regular and consistent.

Miracles OTOH posit a universe where God may intervene against natural law whenever he so chooses. These tow ideas seem contradictory to me. How can we, for example, study cancer rates in patients if miraculous hearings muddy the data?

The only solution that occurs to me is that such miracles must be very rare statistically. Why then do Christians pray so fervently (and in such large numbers) for healing?

Eh, no. As far as I can see the only thing you need to reconcile the idea of a regular and consistent universe where science is possible with a God who can intervene against the natural law whenever he so chooses is the ability to recognize miracles when you see one. That way any potential miracle won't "muddy the data".

[JonathanL]

By the way, what's a Protestant Catholic?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn73J9A0SnU#t=719

That's at 11:59 if the URL doesn't take you to the correct time.

[Tassman]

Thankfully since I recently witnessed an event (which I posted here) that had no natural explanation, nor is there even a theory on how such a thing could happen, I can fairly confidently say that I experience something that had no natural cause.

With all due respect, the fact you cannot explain it doesn't mean it didn't have a natural explanation.

BTW Tass, it is your lucky day - I took you off ignore. I bet you feel like you hit the lottery!

Oh joy unbounded!