Miracles

[seer]

Another dodge. I think you know the answer and just don't want to admit it for some reason: you know you'd be skeptical of pet dragon claims. Any reasonably sane person would. Why is it so hard for you to admit that? You can admit it without giving up anything in your faith. Why won't you?

No Enjolras, I did answer you - I said it would depend on the person making the claim. If they they were not pulling my leg and I knew they were trustworthy I would have little reason to doubt them. Of course, if I could, I would like to see it too.

I don't recall you asking me a question. What was it?

I said: Enjolras, I gave you an example. And I have no good reason to doubt either man. Neither could you offer me a good reason to doubt them.

I'm asking you if you can provide a good reason for me to doubt my two friends who claimed that God personally spoke to them.

[Enjolras]

I'm asking you if you can provide a good reason for me to doubt my two friends who claimed that God personally spoke to them.

What did God tell them? Did he reveal something that only he would know, like the cure for cancer, or was it something mundane and unverifiable like "I love you and have a wonderful plan for your life."?

[Adrift]

This is just more doublespeak: Miracles are rare, but they frequently happen to millions of people around the world.

Nothing inconsistent in saying that something is rare, and yet it happens more frequently than we think. Not sure why that's something you can't get your head around, but I assure you that most people don't find these things contradictory.

Actually, it was Maxvel who said that, in post #72: "...in short, there are a whole bunch of prosaic practical reasons why such a thing could actually be counter-productive for God's point of view."

From that you got "Miracles are counter-productive in convincing non-believers."? Pretty sure that wasn't his intended meaning. In fact, in the very same post he wrote "Miracles can be evidence for particular people that God is real and both knows them and cares about them."

Actually, it came from you in post #103: "There's a view among some Christians that the reason for the lack of many miracles in the West is due in large part to the rampant skepticism and familiarity with Christianity. "

Mmm. No. Its quite the leap to go from what I said to this, "When too many people believe and the culture is saturated with Christianity, he stops or greatly reduces the performance of miracles in that area for some reason." I even specified that the type of familiarity I was referring to was the type that breeds contempt. I'm not sure how well you understand human nature, but often when people become familiar or comfortable with something, they take it for granted. We may find that the newlyweds who are madly and passionately in love with one another today stop paying attention to one another 15 years down the line. Its not uncommon that one party may even despise or have contempt for the other over time. We find instances of something like this taking place throughout scripture where Israel ignored Yahweh, broke their covenant with him, and would commit idolatry. God would invariably remove his hand of protection and providence from the nation. Often a prophet or king would then start up a spiritual revival movement to wake up the church and help restore the nation to right standing.

Contrast that statement with what Jesus actually taught:

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! (Mt. 7:7)

For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.(Mt. 17:20)

I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. (Mt. 21:21)

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. (Mk. 11:24)

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it. (Jn. 14:12-14)

Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them. (Mt. 18:19)

The sayings carry with them the conditions for having the request granted. Asking in accordance with God's will, having agreement of two or more, asking in faithfulness, etc.

Source: Psalm 119:169

Let my cry come before You, O Lord; Give me understanding according to Your word. Let my supplication come before You; Deliver me according to Your word.

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Source: 1 John 3:21

Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; 22 and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.

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Source: 1 John 5:14

This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him.

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And this is the way that Jesus prayed,

Source: Luke 22:41

And He withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and began to pray, 42 saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.”

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Source: Matthew 6:9-13

“Pray, then, in this way: ‘Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 ‘Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.

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And if you read past the John 14 passage you cited you'll see that Jesus lays down the same condition in the next chapter,

Source: John 15:7

If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

© Copyright Original Source

Source: John 15:16

You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

© Copyright Original Source

Its about God's will, and God's glory in prayer, not our own. Prayer is to do with humility, and thanksgiving.

Praying for everyone in a hospital to be healed can hardly be compared with murderous jealousy. Plus, you yourself admit that God heals people in hospitals all the time, so this would clearly be within God's will.

I didn't cite James to imply that praying for everyone in a hospital is comparable to murderous jealousy. I cited James merely to show why some prayer requests are not granted. Since I can see that you read the next paragraph in that quote where I said that Christians don't always know why some prayers seem to go unanswered, its strange to me that you would then think that I was linking the James passage specifically to the hospital scenario.

By the way, NT scholar Robert Gundry goes into what exactly what James means by "murder" in that passage,

Source: Commentary on the New Testament by Robert H. Gundry

"you murder" recalls the death-dealing poison of the tongue (3:8) and therefore isn't to be taken literally...The description of jealously poisonous speech in terms of murder dramatizes its evil character. Words can kill, so to speak. The placement of murder before jealousy highlights the murderous effect of evil speech and the origin of speech in jealousy.

© Copyright Original Source

People recover from illness without prayer at the same rate as those who recover with prayer. This suggests prayer has no more efficacy than placebo.

You say so.

Elijah proved who the true God was to everyone who learned of the story, including us today. I'm simply asking for a similar proof today. Why would this be wrong, especially in light of Jesus' many promises to answer prayer?

This has already been answered.

So, without arguing in a circle, how do you know which signs and wonders are from God, and which are from Satan?

Well, for starters, part of the answer was in the scripture I cited.

[seer]

What did God tell them? Did he reveal something that only he would know, like the cure for cancer, or was it something mundane and unverifiable like "I love you and have a wonderful plan for your life."?

Let me give you one example. One of these men was struggling whether to quite his job and go into the ministry. He had a well paying middle management job and this would would be a big financial hit. On a Sunday night God verbally spoke to Him, calling him into the ministry. Monday morning he goes into work and gets laid off (he didn't see it coming). He is a pastor to this day.

So again, can you provide a good reason for me to doubt this account?

[Enjolras]

Nothing inconsistent in saying that something is rare, and yet it happens more frequently than we think. Not sure why that's something you can't get your head around, but I assure you that most people don't find these things contradictory.

Something that happens to millions of people In every century is not rare. I don't think the word means what you think it means.

The sayings carry with them the conditions for having the request granted. Asking in accordance with God's will, having agreement of two or more, asking in faithfulness, etc.

Sure. What part of asking for all patients in a hospital to be healed is outside of God's will? Especially when the purpose is for people to come to know the love of God by seeing his mighty power.

Its about God's will, and God's glory in prayer, not our own. Prayer is to do with humility, and thanksgiving.

All of that is very consistent with wanting people to be healed so the glory of God may bring more lost sheep into the fold.

You say so.

The efficacy of prayer is in fact testable, by anyone with a coin. You can prove to yourself whether or not prayer is more effective than a placebo effect. Flip a coin 50 times and write down the results. Roughly half the time it will land on heads and half tails. Now run the test a second time, but before each flip ask in humility and for the glory of God to make it land tails every time. The results will be the same as the first time. Thus, prayer is no better than not praying. Prayer works just like homeopathy.: millions testify to its efficacy, but it cannot withstand the scrutiny of a simple controlled test.

This has already been answered.

Yes. I dispute your interpretation.

Well, for starters, part of the answer was in the scripture I cited.

How do you know whether the scripture was inspired by God or Satan?

[shunyadragon]

Doesn't the Bahai faith claim that Bahaullah did miracles?

This has been referenced and discussed before with the references seer posted. Did you read these posts and references? Apparently not. As described before the Baha'i view of miracles is decidedly different from the Christian view of miracles. Actually in terms of the type of miracles described in this thread, again no.

[seer]

This has been referenced and discussed before with the references seer posted. Did you read these posts and references? Apparently not. As described before the Baha'i view of miracles is decidedly different from the Christian view of miracles. Actually in terms of the type of miracles described in this thread, again no.

How are they different Shuny? They are not "natural" events - correct? Or they would be called miracles.

[Enjolras]

Let me give you one example. One of these men was struggling whether to quite his job and go into the ministry. He had a well paying middle management job and this would would be a big financial hit. On a Sunday night God verbally spoke to Him, calling him into the ministry. Monday morning he goes into work and gets laid off (he didn't see it coming). He is a pastor to this day.

So again, can you provide a good reason for me to doubt this account?

There is nothing particularly remarkable about someone getting laid off and entering a new profession: it is a mundane circumstance that happens all the time. This is why you might consider having healthy dose of skepticism. If your friend entered a lab and developed the cure for cancer the next day as a result of information God gave him, that would be significant.

This is not to suggest your friend is lying. He may very well think God spoke to him, but I've already listed a number of cognitive biases in this thread that might lead you to question whether what he said actually happened.

[seer]

There is nothing particularly remarkable about someone getting laid off and entering a new profession: it is a mundane circumstance that happens all the time. This is why you might consider having healthy dose of skepticism. If your friend entered a lab and developed the cure for cancer the next day as a result of information God gave him, that would be significant.

Yes, it just so happened that the Monday morning after the Sunday night that he heard the command to go into the ministry he gets laid off.

This is not to suggest your friend is lying. He may very well think God spoke to him, but I've already listed a number of cognitive biases in this thread that might lead you to question whether what he said actually happened.

That is the point Enjolras, there is good no reason to assume that he did not hear the voice of God. It never happened before, and has not happened since.

[Boxing Pythagoras]

Something that happens to millions of people In every century is not rare. I don't think the word means what you think it means.

I would rather disagree with this. Considering the fact that there are billions of people alive in those centuries, "millions" make up less than 1%. Something that occurs to less than 1% of people in a given century can certainly be thought of as "rare."

[Enjolras]

Yes, it just so happened that the Monday morning after the Sunday night that he heard the command to go into the ministry he gets laid off.

Do you ever wonder why God would bother to speak to him about this in the first place? He was already wondering whether he should go into ministry. Wouldn't getting laid off be enough of a clue? Also, if God truly spoke to him why did God also orchestrate his termination for the next day? Wouldn't God personally speaking to someone be enough of a reason for doing something? Seriously.

Also, why does God only give out mundane thoughts, and never provide insights into the universe that are unavailable except through the long, difficult process of scientific discovery? For example, he never told anyone about the germ theory of disease. Millions of people needlessly died over thousands of years because they didn't know the importance of the simple practice of washing their hands before eating.

And why didn't he warn my friends about their daughter's impending death when they could have prevented it? He's too busy telling some guy to become a pastor?! My friends are devoted Christians, yet God was silent. The whole thing is absurd.

That is the point Enjolras, there is good no reason to assume that he did not hear the voice of God. It never happened before, and has not happened since.

There are plenty of reasons for doubt. I've given quite a few.

[Enjolras]

I would rather disagree with this. Considering the fact that there are billions of people alive in those centuries, "millions" make up less than 1%. Something that occurs to less than 1% of people in a given century can certainly be thought of as "rare."

At 1%, 84,000 people in New York City alone have experienced a miracle. That's more than twice the number of police officers in the city. Would you say police officers are rare? At what point does something go from being rare to not rare? 5% 10%?

My whole point in bringing this up is to point out the doublethink of Christians on this topic. You ask them to prove miracles occur and they say miracles are rare and we can't expect to see them. Then you ask why we don't see miracles today and they tell you they happen all the time, just not here and not now, and certainly not in any way verifiable.

[shunyadragon]

How are they different Shuny? They are not "natural" events - correct? Or they would be called miracles.

We have been over this seer. Please read the previous posts. Old news. You are being dense.

[Boxing Pythagoras]

At 1%, 84,000 people in New York City alone have experienced a miracle. That's more than twice the number of police officers in the city. Would you say police officers are rare? At what point does something go from being rare to not rare? 5% 10%?

Yes, I would say that it is rare for a New Yorker to be a police officer.

My whole point in bringing this up is to point out the doublethink of Christians on this topic. You ask them to prove miracles occur and they say miracles are rare and we can't expect to see them. Then you ask why we don't see miracles today and they tell you they happen all the time, just not here and not now, and certainly not in any way verifiable.

Rarity and unfalsifiability are entirely separate issues. I have no issue with theists that purport that miracles are rare events. My issue is with those who define "miracle" in such a way as to make it unfalsifiable, while insisting that miracles can still bear epistemological weight.

[seer]

We have been over this seer. Please read the previous posts. Old news. You are being dense.

No Shuny, you have a well deserved reputation for not being clear, for being slippery. Just like in your recent answer to me. So try a direct answer - are the miracles in your faith natural events - yes or no?