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Samson's and Delilah's Interaction

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  • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    I think his intentions for posting on TWeb are pretty rotten. As an anti-Christian, his primary purpose for posting here is to attempt to poison the faith of others, and to cause strife among believers when and where he can. If you really consider the spiritual ramifications of those sorts of actions, there's nothing to really like about it. People like him like to hide behind the fact that this is a "debate" forum, but I don't really think that holds much water. Debate is a relatively small part of the function of TWeb, and there are plenty of non-Christians on this forum who discuss and debate topics with Christians here without resorting to cynicism, contempt, and misrepresentation. Its those types of amicable discussions, the ones where each party can discuss a topic, learn from one another, and maybe grow in their worldview, or reconsider elements of it, that I think people get the most out of. This "I'm going to create another thread to show you how stupid your religion is" nonsense is not how you go about getting people to reflect on their beliefs, it just causes bitterness.
    I hope my posts don't reduce faith or cause bitterness. One's faith and countenance would have to be weak in such a case, in which case this forum should carry a warning.


    Most apologists like to mix it up here and aren't embittered by observations like this. If you've read any Enns, you'll see he has the same concerns and has adapted his belief system accordingly. I think Liberal Christianity is an alternative to believing that myths are actual history. One should only be burdened with belief in Christ, if Christianity is true, not difficult passages of the OT (like Noah and Samson.

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    • Originally posted by Dante View Post
      That's very different from what you said previously.
      Yup - and I don't think it's worth my time to go back there.

      That's why the quote function is so handy - the hyperlink allows you to go back to the original post to see the CONTEXT of what was being discussed. I've slept since then, so I don't remember.

      Even MORE importantly, though, is the insistence by Whag that the Bible says Samson was "in love" with Delilah -- that's how a few of the translations render the Hebrew, but "in love" is not actually supported the way Whag uses it.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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      • Originally posted by whag View Post
        I hope my posts don't reduce faith or cause bitterness.
        I don't believe you.

        One's faith and countenance would have to be weak in such a case, in which case this forum should carry a warning.
        Oh, don't get me wrong, its not that I think you're very successful at causing doubt and strife, its that you attempt at all that I find deplorable.

        Most apologists like to mix it up here and aren't embittered by observations like this. If you've read any Enns, you'll see he has the same concerns and has adapted his belief system accordingly. I think Liberal Christianity is an alternative to believing that myths are actual history. One should only be burdened with belief in Christ, if Christianity is true, not difficult passages of the OT (like Noah and Samson.
        Yes, I've read Enns. In my opinion he's a few steps away from complete apostasy.

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        • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
          I don't believe you.



          Oh, don't get me wrong, its not that I think you're very successful at causing doubt and strife, its that you attempt at all that I find deplorable.



          Yes, I've read Enns. In my opinion he's a few steps away from complete apostasy.
          What you said about Enns is all I need to know.

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          • Originally posted by Dante View Post
            That's very different from what you said previously.



            Do Mexicans come from a "totally other world" from Americans? The fact that it is "alien" for you to conceive of such cultures and behaviours is not a problem with the Biblical narrative, the problem is you. You're the one who's ignorant of other cultures and thus you finding their motives weird and behaviours odd is simply cultural bigotry. In my country, we've got lots of people who cause immediate discord upon meeting a family. I'm not saying that we condone such behaviour, I'm saying it is not uncommon, and for you to thus presume that it cannot happen is simply argument from personal incredulity.
            Not Mexicans, no. Aztecs, you betcha.

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            • Originally posted by whag View Post
              I hope my posts don't reduce faith or cause bitterness. One's faith and countenance would have to be weak in such a case, in which case this forum should carry a warning.


              Most apologists like to mix it up here and aren't embittered by observations like this. If you've read any Enns, you'll see he has the same concerns and has adapted his belief system accordingly. I think Liberal Christianity is an alternative to believing that myths are actual history. One should only be burdened with belief in Christ, if Christianity is true, not difficult passages of the OT (like Noah and Samson.
              I don't get what's so difficult about the two passages you cited. Personal incredulity? Your ignorance is not the fault of the Bible.
              The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987

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              • Originally posted by whag View Post
                Not Mexicans, no. Aztecs, you betcha.
                So I guess the illegal aliens in America must be Aztecs.
                The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987

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                • Originally posted by Dante View Post
                  I don't get what's so difficult about the two passages you cited. Personal incredulity? Your ignorance is not the fault of the Bible.
                  No, not personal incredulity. The obvious mythic pace and tone, combined with the other parts of the story that don't make sense.

                  Why is it important to believe this particular story is actual history and not myth?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Dante View Post
                    So I guess the illegal aliens in America must be Aztecs.
                    That makes no sense.

                    The point is Judges-era culture is more akin to the Aztecs, which are alien to us. Modern day Mexican culture isn't so different.

                    Cow Poke's point was that the culture and time of Judges was very different from ours, so I shouldn't be comparing it to how we behave today.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by whag View Post
                      No, not personal incredulity. The obvious mythic pace and tone, combined with the other parts of the story that don't make sense.

                      Why is it important to believe this particular story is actual history and not myth?
                      I don't think it's a hill to die on myself, but you started this thread to argue for an opinion on just that very question. It shouldn't come as any surprise that those who disagree will want to make their cases as well.
                      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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                      • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                        I don't think it's a hill to die on myself, but you started this thread to argue for an opinion on just that very question. It shouldn't come as any surprise that those who disagree will want to make their cases as well.
                        How do you mean? I argued for the myth interpretation, correct. I'm not. surprised that others want the historical interpretation. That's why I started the thread.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                          ....

                          Someone who those who were oppressing their group more than they valued foxes?

                          Someone who had lost valuable (if not vital) poultry to foxes?
                          Actually, the foxes were the most likely to have survived. Fox tails aren't strong enough to have lifted those things high enough to keep them from dragging. Torches being dragged like that weren't going to stay lit for very long and if they did they'd burn through the ropes - the foxes would have kept going at any rate. Since they were in grain fields they were unlikely to have gotten hung up on a tree or rock. Most likely they set fire to 1/3 to 1/2 of the field before the torches went out.

                          The ones in vineyards and olive groves would have been at more risk - but even then, they probably pulled free once something provided leverage.

                          The mean part was pairing them up - those unable to free themselves might well have died. But then again, tying tails together isn't exactly the best way to keep them from getting loose again so...


                          Mind you, the Philistines took the worst of it - that was their food supply!
                          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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                          • Originally posted by whag View Post
                            Babies surely do "like" us at a young age. Try leaving one alone for a while and see how happy it is when the mother comes back.

                            That's a much less cynical view than Teal's claim that we love them because of "cuteness."

                            I see Dante already covered this. I referenced the science - it's a reason, not, I suspect the only one. But sufficient to make the point.
                            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                            My Personal Blog

                            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                            Quill Sword

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                            • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                              I see Dante already covered this. I referenced the science - it's a reason, not, I suspect the only one. But sufficient to make the point.
                              Fair enough. It takes cuteness to an existential level, doesn't it? Ugly babies transcend cuteness in the loving mother's mind.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                                Actually, the foxes were the most likely to have survived. Fox tails aren't strong enough to have lifted those things high enough to keep them from dragging. Torches being dragged like that weren't going to stay lit for very long and if they did they'd burn through the ropes - the foxes would have kept going at any rate. Since they were in grain fields they were unlikely to have gotten hung up on a tree or rock. Most likely they set fire to 1/3 to 1/2 of the field before the torches went out.

                                The ones in vineyards and olive groves would have been at more risk - but even then, they probably pulled free once something provided leverage.

                                The mean part was pairing them up - those unable to free themselves might well have died. But then again, tying tails together isn't exactly the best way to keep them from getting loose again so...


                                Mind you, the Philistines took the worst of it - that was their food supply!
                                Ok, he just maimed their tails then.

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