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Samson's and Delilah's Interaction

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  • Originally posted by whag View Post
    None of that follows at all. Also, God gave him the strength to destroy their gate. Weird thing to do after Samson just idolized a prostitute.
    And God made Paul one of the greatest evangelists after he killed and persecuted His church. Samson may have not always been so obedient, but his parents appear to have done what they were supposed to do. That was part of the promise to deliver them from the Philistines. God keeps His promises.

    I know that the LORD has given this land to you and that a great fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who live in this country are melting in fear because of you. We have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea for you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites east of the Jordan, whom you completely destroyed. When we heard of it, our hearts melted and everyone's courage failed because of you, for the LORD your God is God in heaven above and on the earth below. Now then, please swear to me by the LORD that you will show kindness to my family, because I have shown kindness to you. Give me a sure sign that you will spare the lives of my father and mother, my brothers and sisters, and all who belong to them, and that you will save us from death.
    This doesn't demonstrate that they had anything more than the testimony of others. I'm not sure why you think this is in contradiction to what I said. In fact, the underlined enforces that they had only heard from others what had happened before.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
      And God made Paul one of the greatest evangelists after he killed and persecuted His church. Samson may have not always been so obedient, but his parents appear to have done what they were supposed to do. That was part of the promise to deliver them from the Philistines. God keeps His promises.
      I don't know what you mean bringing his parents into it.

      17 Then Manoah asked the Messenger of the LORD, "What is your name? When your words come true, we will honor you."

      He asked for proof before believing. Is that what faithful people do?

      Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
      This doesn't demonstrate that they had anything more than the testimony of others. I'm not sure why you think this is in contradiction to what I said. In fact, the underlined enforces that they had only heard from others what had happened before.
      They "melted with fear" upon hearing. You haven't come close to explaining how Rahab was a model of faith under the circumstances.
      Last edited by whag; 02-08-2015, 12:57 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by whag View Post
        I don't know what you mean bringing his parents into it.

        17 Then Manoah asked the Messenger of the LORD, "What is your name? When your words come true, we will honor you."

        He asked for proof before believing. Is that what faithful people do?

        His parents were the one to whom the promise was made. His parents were the one who did what they were supposed to when it came to the instructions given by the Angel of the Lord. In fact, it wasn't specific conditions involved in the promise were broken that Samson no longer had God's Spirit, and with it the strength he was known for.

        They "melted with fear" upon hearing. You haven't come close to explaining how Rahab was a model of faith under the circumstances.
        Again, she had little reason to put her trust in God, and to trust the spies who had been sent. She had the testimony of others who had known about Egypt, and King Og of Sihon, and she was afraid. Until she asked she had no idea if she would even get a good response. Then there's the fact that many people, even when afraid of their enemy, would rather die for their own people. Not usually so risking getting killed for unknown people.
        She showed loyalty to God, and even turned away the soldiers of her city in the wrong direction. She showed this loyalty, even when she did not have much to go on.

        Would what she knew be enough for you to betray your countrymen, and become a part of said opposing nation?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          Probably due to the fact that was what he had to work with. Nobody is perfect. We all have our flaws -- except one. And it would still be several hundred years before He walked among us.
          Remind me to start a thread about Joshua.... he seemed to be a possible exception.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by whag View Post
            Oh okay. It seemed like you were extrapolating a major weakness from one visit with a prostitute.
            I have never been to a prostitute. It's just not in my character. That's not to say, of course, that I don't have other failings, but this was in relation to the problem he had with Delilah.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by whag View Post
              None of that follows at all. Also, God gave him the strength to destroy their gate. Weird thing to do after Samson just idolized a prostitute.
              King David.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

                His parents were the one to whom the promise was made. His parents were the one who did what they were supposed to when it came to the instructions given by the Angel of the Lord. In fact, it wasn't specific conditions involved in the promise were broken that Samson no longer had God's Spirit, and with it the strength he was known for.
                I'm not following you. Samson's mother had sufficient information.Samson's father disbelieved the story she told and needed confirmation with his own eyes. He didn't recognize the man to be an angel. Only when the angel left spectacularly did he know.

                "Then he realized it was an angel."


                Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                Again, she had little reason to put her trust in God, and to trust the spies who had been sent. She had the testimony of others who had known about Egypt, and King Og of Sihon, and she was afraid. Until she asked she had no idea if she would even get a good response. Then there's the fact that many people, even when afraid of their enemy, would rather die for their own people. Not usually so risking getting killed for unknown people.
                She showed loyalty to God, and even turned away the soldiers of her city in the wrong direction. She showed this loyalty, even when she did not have much to go on.

                Would what she knew be enough for you to betray your countrymen, and become a part of said opposing nation?
                *sigh*

                Yes, if I was melting with fear. Anybody melting with fear would have the same motivation for self preservation.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by whag View Post
                  I'm not following you. Samson's mother had sufficient information.Samson's father disbelieved the story she told and needed confirmation with his own eyes. He didn't recognize the man to be an angel. Only when the angel left spectacularly did he know.

                  "Then he realized it was an angel."
                  And? Samson's parents kept up their end of the bargain. Thus God kept His promise. I'm not seeing where the problem is here.

                  *sigh*

                  Yes, if I was melting with fear. Anybody melting with fear would have the same motivation for self preservation.
                  So, fear is enough for you to abandon your fellows, and fight for the other side? I'm guessing a lot of people are glad you aren't in the military.

                  If the fear was intense as you think it was, then why didn't the people of Jericho just surrender? Why would their king try to kill the spies, instead of, I don't know, striking up a deal with them like Rahab did?

                  Seriously though, I think you're reading too much into the fear factor here.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                    And? Samson's parents kept up their end of the bargain. Thus God kept His promise. I'm not seeing where the problem is here.
                    Manoah wasn't particularly disposed to belief and needed proof. The bargain ensured Manoah's fame and was particularly easy to follow once proof came in the form of the fireworks show.

                    Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                    So, fear is enough for you to abandon your fellows, and fight for the other side? I'm guessing a lot of people are glad you aren't in the military.

                    If the fear was intense as you think it was, then why didn't the people of Jericho just surrender? Why would their king try to kill the spies, instead of, I don't know, striking up a deal with them like Rahab did?

                    Seriously though, I think you're reading too much into the fear factor here.
                    You make her sound like a cowardly traitor more than anything. She'd be more faithful to reject the invitation to be a traitor, have the spies killed for the insult, and face the army bravely with her people.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by whag View Post
                      Manoah wasn't particularly disposed to belief and needed proof. The bargain ensured Manoah's fame and was particularly easy to follow once proof came in the form of the fireworks show.

                      That doesn't seem to be the case at all.

                      Judges 13:6 Then the woman went to her husband and told him, “A man of God came to me. He looked like an angel of God, very awesome. I didn’t ask him where he came from, and he didn’t tell me his name. 7 But he said to me, ‘You will become pregnant and have a son. Now then, drink no wine or other fermented drink and do not eat anything unclean, because the boy will be a Nazirite of God from the womb until the day of his death.’”

                      8 Then Manoah prayed to the Lord: “Pardon your servant, Lord. I beg you to let the man of God you sent to us come again to teach us how to bring up the boy who is to be born.

                      Seems he fully expected the child to be born, he just wanted more information on what to do.

                      You make her sound like a cowardly traitor more than anything. She'd be more faithful to reject the invitation to be a traitor, have the spies killed for the insult, and face the army bravely with her people.
                      How is it more faithful to God, to do what you say? How was it not great faith in God for her to put her trust in Him considering the circumstances? Also, she initiated the deal, she was not invited by them. There would be no "insult" from the spies since they only had stayed there. She took a huge risk in doing so. If her faith had been misplaced, she, and possibly her family could have been killed(the Canaanites weren't particularly just).

                      In your complaint about Manoah you complain because he had seen the "fireworks show" so what he did wasn't "faithful". You also complain that what Rahab did wasn't "faithful" despite her having only heard about God, and his past works from others, and was that she was afraid. You're arguing against both from opposite directions.

                      Faith is essentially trust. Samson's parents had much more given to them as far as signs, but this does not negate that they did indeed have faith. In fact, they had faith just from meeting the Angel of the Lord, even while they didn't realize it was Him. They also fulfilled their end of the "deal". Rahab did not have nearly as much to go on, yet trusted God anyway.

                      John 20:28-30New International Version (NIV)

                      28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

                      29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.

                      This fits with Rahab. She had only heard about God, but not seen Him, nor what He had done.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

                        That doesn't seem to be the case at all.

                        Judges 13:6 Then the woman went to her husband and told him, “A man of God came to me. He looked like an angel of God, very awesome. I didn’t ask him where he came from, and he didn’t tell me his name. 7 But he said to me, ‘You will become pregnant and have a son. Now then, drink no wine or other fermented drink and do not eat anything unclean, because the boy will be a Nazirite of God from the womb until the day of his death.’”

                        8 Then Manoah prayed to the Lord: “Pardon your servant, Lord. I beg you to let the man of God you sent to us come again to teach us how to bring up the boy who is to be born.

                        Seems he fully expected the child to be born, he just wanted more information on what to do.
                        He did, and notice he didn't get any more information. He got confirmation instead:

                        21 "When the angel of the Lord did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the Lord."


                        Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                        How is it more faithful to God, to do what you say? How was it not great faith in God for her to put her trust in Him considering the circumstances? Also, she initiated the deal, she was not invited by them. There would be no "insult" from the spies since they only had stayed there. She took a huge risk in doing so. If her faith had been misplaced, she, and possibly her family could have been killed(the Canaanites weren't particularly just).
                        That's your preferred interpretation because Hebrews calls her faithful.

                        Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                        In your complaint about Manoah you complain because he had seen the "fireworks show" so what he did wasn't "faithful". You also complain that what Rahab did wasn't "faithful" despite her having only heard about God, and his past works from others, and was that she was afraid. You're arguing against both from opposite directions.
                        Obviously, the situations are different. Rahab feared for her life. Manoah was told he'd have an amazing son and given proof of such. I don't see lots of trust going on here like you do. Certainly not the kind that wouldn't be easy to extend. Rahab's trust came from her fear for her family's life. Manoah's trust came from seeing a fireworks show. Yes, he asked for more info. Instead, he got confirmation.

                        13 Again the Israelites did evil in the eyes of the Lord, so the Lord delivered them into the hands of the Philistines for forty years.

                        2 A certain man of Zorah, named Manoah, from the clan of the Danites, had a wife who was childless, unable to give birth. 3 The angel of the Lord appeared to her and said, “You are barren and childless, but you are going to become pregnant and give birth to a son. 4 Now see to it that you drink no wine or other fermented drink and that you do not eat anything unclean. 5 You will become pregnant and have a son whose head is never to be touched by a razor because the boy is to be a Nazirite, dedicated to God from the womb. He will take the lead in delivering Israel from the hands of the Philistines.0”

                        6 Then the woman went to her husband and told him, “A man of God came to me. He looked like an angel of God, very awesome. I didn’t ask him where he came from, and he didn’t tell me his name. 7 But he said to me, ‘You will become pregnant and have a son. Now then, drink no wine or other fermented drink and do not eat anything unclean, because the boy will be a Nazirite of God from the womb until the day of his death.’”

                        8 Then Manoah prayed to the Lord: “Pardon your servant, Lord. I beg you to let the man of God you sent to us come again to teach us how to bring up the boy who is to be born.”

                        9 God heard Manoah, and the angel of God came again to the woman while she was out in the field; but her husband Manoah was not with her. 10 The woman hurried to tell her husband, “He’s here! The man who appeared to me the other day!”

                        11 Manoah got up and followed his wife. When he came to the man, he said, “Are you the man who talked to my wife?”

                        “I am,” he said.

                        12 So Manoah asked him, “When your words are fulfilled, what is to be the rule that governs the boy’s life and work?”

                        13 The angel of the Lord answered, “Your wife must do all that I have told her. 14 She must not eat anything that comes from the grapevine, nor drink any wine or other fermented drink nor eat anything unclean. She must do everything I have commanded her.”

                        15 Manoah said to the angel of the Lord, “We would like you to stay until we prepare a young goat for you.”

                        16 The angel of the Lord replied, “Even though you detain me, I will not eat any of your food. But if you prepare a burnt offering, offer it to the Lord.” (Manoah did not realize that it was the angel of the Lord.)

                        17 Then Manoah inquired of the angel of the Lord, “What is your name, so that we may honor you when your word comes true?”

                        18 He replied, “Why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding.[a]” 19 Then Manoah took a young goat, together with the grain offering, and sacrificed it on a rock to the Lord. And the Lord did an amazing thing while Manoah and his wife watched: 20 As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame. Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground. 21 When the angel of the Lord did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the Lord.

                        22 “We are doomed to die!” he said to his wife. “We have seen God!”

                        23 But his wife answered, “If the Lord had meant to kill us, he would not have accepted a burnt offering and grain offering from our hands, nor shown us all these things or now told us this.”

                        24 The woman gave birth to a boy and named him Samson. He grew and the Lord blessed him, 25 and the Spirit of the Lord began to stir him while he was in Mahaneh Dan, between Zorah and Eshtaol
                        I'm only seeing the same instructions the angel gave to his wife.

                        Originally posted by Cerebrum123
                        Faith is essentially trust. Samson's parents had much more given to them as far as signs, but this does not negate that they did indeed have faith. In fact, they had faith just from meeting the Angel of the Lord, even while they didn't realize it was Him. They also fulfilled their end of the "deal". Rahab did not have nearly as much to go on, yet trusted God anyway.
                        I don't understand how that's a virtue--trusting anyone who says he's a messenger from God. Some kind of proof would be in order.


                        Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                        They also fulfilled their end of the "deal". Rahab did not have nearly as much to go on, yet trusted God anyway.

                        John 20:28-30New International Version (NIV)

                        28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

                        29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.

                        This fits with Rahab. She had only heard about God, but not seen Him, nor what He had done.
                        The hearing was powerful enough to make her believe. I don't see trust but fear.
                        Last edited by whag; 02-08-2015, 04:43 PM.

                        Comment


                        • whag, how about answering my question here?
                          http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post155721
                          The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Dante View Post
                            Exactly how many prayers are we talking about here? One?
                            Two, in addition to the constant imbuing of strength. He rips off the gate after he had sex with the prostitute, meaning that God gave him the power to do that.

                            Originally posted by Dante View Post
                            Whoever said that Samson was a "model of faith"?
                            It's called the "Faith Hall of Fame" suspectly:

                            For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, 33who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions
                            "time will fail me" says the Hebrew writer.

                            Comment


                            • Yeah, I've lost interest in continuing this conversation. I'm bowing out.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                                Yeah, I've lost interest in continuing this conversation. I'm bowing out.
                                Notice how Manoah asks the angel to come back to give MORE INFO on Samson? See how the angel repeats the same thing he told Manoah's wife?

                                You see that, right?

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