Yahweh Vs. The gods

[Boxing Pythagoras]

That does not change the fact that Plato's deity is subordinate to things which pre-exist.

...actually, it does. Read Plato's Laws. Seriously, I linked right to it, Book and page. His concept of deity is not subordinate to pre-existent things. Plato's deity consists of the earliest extant self-animated spirit, which he explicitly argues to have pre-existed all things physical, in a direct contrast to the Atomist view that the physical precedes the spirit.

They all have been influenced by the Hebrew and Christian scriptures which precedes their modern views.

Even if true, it's irrelevant. The gentleman in the video claimed that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are the only transcendental monotheistic religions. There are other transcendental monotheistic religions. Whether those religions were influenced by the Abrahamic religions or not has no bearing on the fact that the gentleman was wrong.

[37818]

...actually, it does. Read Plato's Laws. Seriously, I linked right to it, Book and page. His concept of deity is not subordinate to pre-existent things. Plato's deity consists of the earliest extant self-animated spirit, which he explicitly argues to have pre-existed all things physical, in a direct contrast to the Atomist view that the physical precedes the spirit.

OK. I'll recheck this.

Even if true, it's irrelevant. The gentleman in the video claimed that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are the only transcendental monotheistic religions. There are other transcendental monotheistic religions. Whether those religions were influenced by the Abrahamic religions or not has no bearing on the fact that the gentleman was wrong.

Are you sure? I'm going to rewatch the video. As I remember it, I understood other ancient deities were meant. At least that is how I had taken what was said.

[Pentecost]

BP has a point. I do not know if Plato made this claim, but Neo-Platonism does make the claim that there is one self caused Ideal from which all things sprung, and the physical realm was very very far removed from this deity, which one can conceptualize using the classical knowledge of ideals and archetypes.

Edit: The gentleman stated at the beginning and restated at the end the uniqueness of the Abrahamic tradition in having a monotheistic, transcendental deity. I would assume that he does not actually believe this but used a half truth to keep the time limit.

[jordanriver]

The gentleman should test his ideas here at TWEB before making a video, like I do

ill be ready to make a video in about 20 years

[37818]

One problem: The title of the thread is a little different than the title of the video: Yahweh and the Ancient Gods: Seven Minute Seminary My understanding of the video included its title.

[Scrawly]

...actually, it does. Read Plato's Laws. Seriously, I linked right to it, Book and page. His concept of deity is not subordinate to pre-existent things. Plato's deity consists of the earliest extant self-animated spirit, which he explicitly argues to have pre-existed all things physical, in a direct contrast to the Atomist view that the physical precedes the spirit.

It was actually the Demiurge-god that "creates" the cosmos, not his "Ultimate God", and the Demiurge does not create it ex nihilo, but rather out of something - the FORMS (which "exist" somehow, somewhere in an immaterial "transcendental realm"). Like most ancient Greeks, Plato believed that form and matter always existed eternally. Thus there was no creation "out of nothing". The "stuff" needed was already there. So for Plato it is the Demiurge-god that "created" the cosmos, including man, out of Plato's pre-existing immaterial Forms. So, for Plato, ultimate reality was forms, not a personal God.

Even if true, it's irrelevant. The gentleman in the video claimed that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are the only transcendental monotheistic religions.

OK, so Monotheism is not a Hebrew original, but was borrowed from _____?

There are other transcendental monotheistic religions. Whether those religions were influenced by the Abrahamic religions..

Dr. Oswalt argues that the worldview of the Bible is distinct from that of the rest of ANE literature:

1) God is spirit and not matter which is the polar opposite viewpoint of myth. Myth states that matter is the basis of everything.

2) There was no conflict during the creation process. In myth creation evolves from chaos but in the Old Testament the world exists only because God spoke it into existence.

3) The Old Testament has a very high viewpoint of humanity. In fact man is made in the image of God. God created man last and man is the apex of all creation. In myth humanity is an afterthought and the only purpose is to provide for the gods.

4) God is reliable and consistent. Yahweh will bless people and be there for his people even when it is not to God’s advantage. In myth the gods are fickle and only self-serving.

5) God is supra-sexual which simply means God is not sexed. He is neither male nor female. He is spirit being and does not take on any traits of sexuality and sex played no part in the creation process. In myth gods comes into existence by sexual means. They have sex with each other to make other gods and also have sex with desirable women to make semi-gods.

6) Since God is not sexed in the Bible, sex is desacralized in the Old Testament. God set clear boundaries to establish what is acceptable and what is forbidden when dealing with sexual relationships. Mythology uses all types of sexual rituals so that they can influence and manipulate the gods. There are no boundaries and anything goes.

7) The Old Testament also prohibits the use of magic. Sorcery of all kind is forbidden and may not be used to attempt to manipulate God in any ritualistic way. The attempt to manipulate God to gain self-interest is vile to God. You maintain a personal relationship with God though prayer and obedience. In mythology magic, sorcery and rituals are common and essential to dealing with the gods. There is no individual as the individual is just part of the continuous nature. The gods are only influenced through the rituals of society.

8) Humans relate to God though ethical behavior and to the disciplined obedience of God. What matters most to the Israelites is how people treat their parents, their children, their neighbors and strangers. They show their commitment to God by how they interact with others. God gives strict laws for his people to uphold and follow. Strict obedience to this covenant will create holiness for oneself bringing one closer to the holiness of God.

Source: http://www.academia.edu/6973036/Oswa...ummary_donload

[Pentecost]

It was actually the Demiurge-god that "creates" the cosmos, not his "Ultimate God", and the Demiurge does not create it ex nihilo, but rather out of something - the FORMS (which "exist" somehow, somewhere in an immaterial "transcendental realm"). Like most ancient Greeks, Plato believed that form and matter always existed eternally. Thus there was no creation "out of nothing". The "stuff" needed was already there. So for Plato it is the Demiurge-god that "created" the cosmos, including man, out of Plato's pre-existing immaterial Forms. So, for Plato, ultimate reality was forms, not a personal God.

From what I recall the Demiurge had multiple origins depending on the Neo-Platonic school of thought, with at least the Valentinian Gnostics teaching about how it was born of spirit beings who were born of other spirit beings, but they all spring from one original transcental being from which all ideas sprung being that this deity was the self-caused one, the deluded Demiurge did in fact make matter as a pale imitation of the real transcedental Ideals. But the Demiurge was never considered a positive being, so I think it's unfair to refer to it and not the self actualized God. Otherwise, of course I agree with you, and no deity of Neo-Platonism is personal (Demiurge, kinda but not in a good way).

[37818]

Nobody does. But He’s not in the book. Cannibalism is though.
“I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another's flesh during the stress of the siege imposed on them by the enemies who seek their lives.”

Like I said, you do not understand. God's judgment upon that city. These people were brought to starvation.

Jeremiah prophet writes, ". . . [They that be] slain with the sword are better than [they that be] slain with hunger: for these pine away, stricken through for [want of] the fruits of the field. The hands of the pitiful women have sodden their own children: they were their meat in the destruction of the daughter of my people. . . ."

[37818]

...actually, it does. Read Plato's Laws. Seriously, I linked right to it, Book and page. His concept of deity is not subordinate to pre-existent things. Plato's deity consists of the earliest extant self-animated spirit, which he explicitly argues to have pre-existed all things physical, in a direct contrast to the Atomist view that the physical precedes the spirit.

Give me a citation or a reference.

Like this: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1572/1572-h/1572-h.htm

Or a quote, ". . . As I said at first, all things were originally a chaos in which there was no order or proportion. The elements of this chaos were arranged by the Creator, and out of them he made the world. . . ." As I said, Plato's God created from pre-existing matter.

Even if true, it's irrelevant. The gentleman in the video claimed that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are the only transcendental monotheistic religions. There are other transcendental monotheistic religions. Whether those religions were influenced by the Abrahamic religions or not has no bearing on the fact that the gentleman was wrong.

The video's title: Yahweh and the Ancient Gods: Seven Minute Seminary. I understood it in that context. OK. You did not.

[Boxing Pythagoras]

It was actually the Demiurge-god that "creates" the cosmos, not his "Ultimate God", and the Demiurge does not create it ex nihilo, but rather out of something - the FORMS (which "exist" somehow, somewhere in an immaterial "transcendental realm"). Like most ancient Greeks, Plato believed that form and matter always existed eternally. Thus there was no creation "out of nothing". The "stuff" needed was already there. So for Plato it is the Demiurge-god that "created" the cosmos, including man, out of Plato's pre-existing immaterial Forms. So, for Plato, ultimate reality was forms, not a personal God.

Plato discusses his conception of deity primarily in two of his works. One is the Timaeus dialogue, which you are here referencing-- our source for Plato's Demiurgic concept. The other is the Laws, Book 10, which I cited. In Laws, Plato explicitly argues that spirit precedes the physical.

Now, it is possible that Plato's positions in Timaeus and Laws are inconsistent. However, in neither case does Plato consider deity to be "subordinate" to previously existing matter, as was 37818's claim.

OK, so Monotheism is not a Hebrew original, but was borrowed from _____?

I don't believe that I ever claimed the Hebrews borrowed their monotheism from anyone. It's certainly possible that Hebraic monotheism was influenced by other ancient Near East religions-- for example, the Zoroastrians or the Cult of Aten-- but I honestly have not researched the subject enough to confidently present such a claim. It's also entirely possible that Hebraic monotheism developed independently of other monotheisms. However, this seems entirely beside the point, which was simply that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are not the only transcendental monotheistic religions, in contradiction to the claims of the OP's video.

Give me a citation or a reference.

I did. I paraphrased the content of Plato's Laws, Book 10, and I gave you a link to the precise page in that text which began to illustrate my paraphrase.

For Plato, I already mentioned that it was from his Laws, but I'll get more specific. In Book 10 of Laws, Plato explicitly argues that the soul is not a physical body, that souls precede physical bodies, and that deity is what provides the soul with motion, therefore deity must be similarly non-physical and must precede even souls.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...0%3Apage%3D893

[firstfloor]

Like I said, you do not understand. God's judgment upon that city. These people were brought to starvation.

“The essence of religion is attributing to god what really belongs to man.” – Jersey Flight
This inversion forces you to adopt the understanding that the victim brings his suffering upon himself. The associated moral and ethical problems are obvious.

[37818]

“The essence of religion is attributing to god what really belongs to man.” – Jersey Flight
This inversion forces you to adopt the understanding that the victim brings his suffering upon himself. The associated moral and ethical problems are obvious.

So am I to understand you condone burning one's own children in worship of some god [Baal] is better?

[firstfloor]

So am I to understand you condone burning one's own children in worship of some god [Baal] is better?

No, you are not.

[jordanriver]

Plato discusses his conception of deity primarily in two of his works. One is the Timaeus dialogue, which you are here referencing-- our source for Plato's Demiurgic concept. The other is the Laws, Book 10, which I cited. In Laws, Plato explicitly argues that spirit precedes the physical.

Now, it is possible that Plato's positions in Timaeus and Laws are inconsistent. However, in neither case does Plato consider deity to be "subordinate" to previously existing matter, as was 37818's claim.

I don't believe that I ever claimed the Hebrews borrowed their monotheism from anyone. It's certainly possible that Hebraic monotheism was influenced by other ancient Near East religions-- for example, the Zoroastrians or the Cult of Aten-- but I honestly have not researched the subject enough to confidently present such a claim. It's also entirely possible that Hebraic monotheism developed independently of other monotheisms. However, this seems entirely beside the point, which was simply that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are not the only transcendental monotheistic religions, in contradiction to the claims of the OP's video.

I did. I paraphrased the content of Plato's Laws, Book 10, and I gave you a link to the precise page in that text which began to illustrate my paraphrase.

For Plato, I already mentioned that it was from his Laws, but I'll get more specific. In Book 10 of Laws, Plato explicitly argues that the soul is not a physical body, that souls precede physical bodies, and that deity is what provides the soul with motion, therefore deity must be similarly non-physical and must precede even souls.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...0%3Apage%3D893

so which Greek god was Plato referring to

[Boxing Pythagoras]

so which Greek god was Plato referring to

Plato wasn't referring to any specific god, in Laws, but rather to the very concept of deity.