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Goliath and Legend

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  • #46
    Originally posted by whag View Post
    Does faith complement skill by sharpening David's aim and augmenting the velocity of the stone throw?

    I don't understand why a common skill--defending herds against apex predators--would make Saul enlist David. Nothing about that really makes sense, and it has little if anything to do with supernature. Like bad movies, legends often have unbelievable plot points to get to the critical action.


    This is why you're regarded as being an idiot whag, because you make dumb statements, such as this. Where do I have to assume that? Where does the bible say that or are you just making up crap, as you go along? Besides, it wasn't as though professional solders were common, in the 10th century BC. You are aware that most ancient cultures didn't have a professional army, right?
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by whag View Post
      You don't have to. Trust scholars and your experience in reading ancient accounts of heroes. Trust your gut, as well. What does your gut tell you about Samson killing 1,000 men with the jawbone of an ass, for example?
      Can I take 'changing the goal post' for 1000, alex?

      Do yourself a favor whag, stop talking. One could assume far less people were killed, when we consider that isn't that hard for numbers to get mixed up. A sling being capable of killing a grown man is quite a tested feat. The sling is a very effective weapon that is quite capable of killing somebody, with a well place shot. This has been demonstrated, in modern times (you are aware slings have been used, in wars and battles, in the 21st century, right?).
      "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
      GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by whag View Post
        You don't have to. Trust scholars and your experience in reading ancient accounts of heroes. Trust your gut, as well. What does your gut tell you about Samson killing 1,000 men with the jawbone of an ass, for example?
        yup.
        there is no justification for YOU to believe any of it.

        I dont know why you bother, if there is no God, then those stories are impossible.
        To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

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        • #49
          Originally posted by whag View Post
          Have we ever discovered a 9-foot human fossil who was not disfigured in some way?
          Have you discovered that ancient measurements, were not as accurate as modern measurements are?
          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
            It is funny to note that the losers still went to battle instead of accepting slavery.

            We often think how great this account is which focuses on a little guy going up against a big warrior. The point we miss is that the Hebrews were willing to record an account (and preserve) an account which showed themselves as a fearful people with a king who could not even muster up a challenger to Goliath. Is such weakness of a people common material for making legends? I've never tested the theory but would expect that legendary writings would show one's own people as the powerful rulers and warriors.
            It actually is fairly common. The theme of "overcoming adversity" has been a pretty normal cliche in legends for quite a long time. For example, in the legends surrounding the Spartan Constitution, the Spartan people are depicted as weak, petty, and undisciplined-- everything which later Spartan society would find detestable-- but Lycurgus taught Sparta the value of law and order.

            In Beowulf, Hrothgar's kingdom is depicted as weak and despairing until Beowulf overcomes the evil and assumes the throne.

            In Sengoku Japan, the Oda clan was fractious and weak until Oda Nobunaga's brilliance united the warring factions, eventually gaining him control of two thirds of the nation.

            It's entirely normal for legends to depict a great leader as taking a weak nation and making it strong.
            "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
            --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by whag View Post
              That's why I acknowledged that the skill to kill large predators wasn't an extraordinary skill for shepherds or warriors, hence Saul's being impressed by it rather odd.
              1. Guns can take our people at long range.
              2. An enemy is taken out at long range, by a soldier
              3. The generals are impressed by his skill, with the weapon, and decided to promote him or give him an award.

              Whag logic would say this sort of story is just a legend and never really happened!



              Really whag, a weapon being capable of killing somebody, doesn't mean it isn't impressive when somebody can show great skill, with this said weapon. Being able to hit a moving target, between the eyes, at a distance, using a sling, is quite a skilled shot. Using such a weapon to throw these stones at a battle line is one thing, using it to hit a specific target, is quite different.
              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                What exactly was the lag time between the supposed oral time frame and the writing of the account? I guess you haven't provided enough detail here.

                I guess your Jedi analogy doesn't convey any useful point then. This wasn't even described as a magic feat. David is shown to act on the confidence that God's name would be honored. However we see David's confidence in God reflected here. The actions of David within that confidence were actions within the range of ability we might see among men.

                Also note that if I had to face someone the height of Shaq and the build of a defensive back, I wouldn't be especially excited to volunteer to fight against him.
                I or someone else will get back to you on the time between the events and the writing.

                Re: Jedi hand wave, I used that in reference to Samson. And the magic element is a legitimate analogy, as both rely on an external force (keratin, midichlorians, God) not sinew alone.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                  It actually is fairly common. The theme of "overcoming adversity" has been a pretty normal cliche in legends for quite a long time. For example, in the legends surrounding the Spartan Constitution, the Spartan people are depicted as weak, petty, and undisciplined-- everything which later Spartan society would find detestable-- but Lycurgus taught Sparta the value of law and order.
                  And yet, there's plenty of modern tales that do tell us that people do it. Ever heard of Vasily Zaytsev? He was a war hero during WWII. Based on the logic you're presenting here, I guess his story never really happened? Please, stories of people overcoming some adversity, to become some sort of hero (at least to most people) isn't all that uncommon. It happens in the modern day and I bet it happened in the ancient world too.
                  "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                  GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                    I'm just pointing out what Scrawly is probably referring to when he said that Jesus claimed all Scriptures point to Him. But Jesus' words certainly seem general enough to encompass the entirety of the Old Testament. I.e I think He was telling His listeners that the Scriptures (i.e the Old Testament) that they were studying in hopes of gaining eternal life were pointing to him. He might not have meant that every single part of the Old Testament was specifically talking about Him or foreshadowing Him in some way, but it does seem like he thought the Old Testament in general was written to point the way to Himself. Atleast it seems to me like that is the case when I read the passage. Even if there are other ways (and they might even be valid) to interpret the passage it seems to me that this is the most straightforward interpretation, and I see no good reason as to why I should prefer a more non-intuitive interpretation to this one.
                    Yep, this seems to be the accurate reading.

                    Source: The Gospel According to John by D.A. Carson

                    39-40 Their tragic failure to grasp God’s truth was nowhere more clearly manifest than in their approach to the Scriptures. It was not that they were negligent of this magnificent deposit. Jesus himself acknowledges, You diligently study the Scriptures. The form of the verb could be taken as an imperative (cf. AV 'Search the Scriptures'), but the context demands the indicative (cf. Dodd, IFG, pp. 329-330). The Jewish leaders of Jesus' day were undoubtedly diligent students of the Scriptures; they needed no exhortation along these lines. The verb rendered 'diligently study' corresponds to the Hebrew verb daras, a technical term used to refer to their study and exposition of the Bible and of 'oral Torah', the body of oral traditions that had also come down to them. But Jesus points out that their primary motivation in such diligent study was the hope of final acceptance of God: you think that by them you possess eternal life. Certainly there is ample external evidence that supports this reading of Jewish motivation: e.g. Hillel affirms that the more study of the law, the more life, and that if a man gains for himself words of the law he has gained for himself life in the world to come (Pirke Aboth 2:7).

                    By contrast, Jesus insists that there is nothing intrinsically life-giving about studying the Scriptures, if one fails to discern their true content and purpose. These are the Scriptures, Jesus says, that testify about me. This is one of six passages in the Fourth Gospel where Scripture or some writer of Old Testament Scripture is said to speak or write of Christ, even though no specific passage is adduced (cf. 1:45; 2:22; 3:10; 5:45-46; 20:9). What is at stake is a comprehensive hermeneutical key. By predictive prophecy, by type, by revelatory event and by anticipatory statue, what we call the Old Testament is understood to point to Christ, his ministry, his teaching, his death and resurrection.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    Source: John by Andreas J. Köstenberger

                    5:39-40 Jewish diligence in studying the Torah was legendary. But although the Jews' zeal in studying Scripture was undeniable, Jesus maintained that such zeal was misguided, for alone it was insufficient for attaining eternal life. What is required, rather, is an understanding of Scripture's true (christological) orientation and purpose. Not merely are individual saying of Scripture fulfilled in Jesus; Scripture in its entirety is oriented toward him. Yet Jesus' Jewish opponents "did not want" to come to him (i.e., to accept his claims and believe in him): their refusal is deliberate (R. Brown 1966: 225).

                    © Copyright Original Source

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                      And yet, there's plenty of modern tales that do tell us that people do it. Ever heard of Vasily Zaytsev? He was a war hero during WWII. Based on the logic you're presenting here, I guess his story never really happened? Please, stories of people overcoming some adversity, to become some sort of hero (at least to most people) isn't all that uncommon. It happens in the modern day and I bet it happened in the ancient world too.
                      You seem to misunderstand my point. In fact, the example I gave of Oda Nobunaga is exactly what actually happened, historically, though there were legends which cropped up about Nobunaga's rise to power.

                      Mike was asking if it was a common theme, in legendary accounts, to see the protagonist nation depicted as weak or fearful. I was simply noting that, yes, this is a common theme. I made no implication that the theme necessarily implies a lack of historicity.
                      "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                      --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                        It actually is fairly common. The theme of "overcoming adversity" has been a pretty normal cliche in legends for quite a long time. For example, in the legends surrounding the Spartan Constitution, the Spartan people are depicted as weak, petty, and undisciplined-- everything which later Spartan society would find detestable-- but Lycurgus taught Sparta the value of law and order.

                        In Beowulf, Hrothgar's kingdom is depicted as weak and despairing until Beowulf overcomes the evil and assumes the throne.

                        In Sengoku Japan, the Oda clan was fractious and weak until Oda Nobunaga's brilliance united the warring factions, eventually gaining him control of two thirds of the nation.

                        It's entirely normal for legends to depict a great leader as taking a weak nation and making it strong.
                        Does it then seem that the David-Goliath event was to show the turn in history where Israel became and remained a super power? Is this what scripture is conveying in the broader record, i.e. the consistent theme?

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                          Does it then seem that the David-Goliath event was to show the turn in history where Israel became and remained a super power? Is this what scripture is conveying in the broader record?
                          It certainly seems that the David-Goliath account was intended to bolster the depiction of the rise to greatness of David and the Davidic kingdom.
                          "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                          --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by jordanriver View Post
                            yup.
                            there is no justification for YOU to believe any of it.

                            I dont know why you bother, if there is no God, then those stories are impossible.
                            Bother talking about the extent of possible legendary exaggeration in the story of a king? I bother for many reasons: 1) legends and how they evolve are interesting 2) the blur between myth and literal history is a fascinating topic 3) Many liberal Christians choose not to be apologists for anything but the resurrection, the burden of apologizing for possible myth and legend being too great. 4) I have a lot of Christian friends and family.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                              You seem to misunderstand my point. In fact, the example I gave of Oda Nobunaga is exactly what actually happened, historically, though there were legends which cropped up about Nobunaga's rise to power.

                              Mike was asking if it was a common theme, in legendary accounts, to see the protagonist nation depicted as weak or fearful. I was simply noting that, yes, this is a common theme. I made no implication that the theme necessarily implies a lack of historicity.
                              Where they a great power before or after? Plus, weak and fearful can mean several different things.
                              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                                Where they a great power before or after?
                                Are you asking about the Oda? The clan was a fairly minor power. After Oda Nobuhide died in 1551, his sons quibbled and disputed over the daimyo lands. By 1560, Nobunaga had united the Owari province-- a relatively small area, only about 1000 square kilometers. By his death in 1582, Nobunaga controlled almost two thirds of Japan.

                                Plus, weak and fearful can mean several different things.
                                Certainly!
                                "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                                --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

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