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The Great Hell Debate

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  • #16
    Originally posted by whag View Post
    The verse doesn't address the difficulty and amounts to a hand wave. "All the people deserve their destinations" isn't really saying anything. We know you believe that.
    wait a minute.

    are you confusing HABITATION and DESTINATION.

    ACTS 17:26 wasn't referring to DESTINATION, as in people deserve it if their destination is hell.

    it refers to HABITATION, as in, where they live , BEFORE they die.


    My response was not about the whole debate, just only about the part that you had said:
    "He seems vulnerable on the point of those people who haven't heard the gospel or even outright reject the message because of native religious enculturation"

    I took that to mean, its not fair because people live where they wont get a chance to hear the gospel.

    AS IF, oops, God forgot about the people who live where the gospel isn't preached.

    But the Bible says there is NO OOPS on God's part. He already determined their habitation. If Bible God knows every individual, then He knows what is the best destination for each one.

    and you cannot say an individual in, say, Sri Lanka or Borneo has less chance of getting reached and saved after hearing what a missionary has to say, than an individual in Christianity Land USA , who lives in a technologically advanced SECULAR culture, with overwhelming influence from the SECULAR media and entertainment and schools.

    did you know there are now missionaries from 3rd world NON-CHRISTIAN countries , that they are now in the USA .

    Just like we from the USA have missionaries in formerly Christian dominated Europe and Eastern Europe, now it looks like Americans are going to have to hear the gospel from new Christians from Asia and Africa pretty soon.

    GEOGRAPHY is no barrier on hearing the gospel. It wasn't a barrier for Pagan Europe when the Christians were in the Middle East, and its not a barrier in the rest of the world now either.
    To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by whag View Post
      Craig:

      "First of all, it may not be feasible for God to create a world which consists simply of heaven alone, in isolation from the world that leads up to heaven, where people freely choose to go there or not to go there.
      I don't see why this wouldn't be 'feasible.' Why couldn't God just look ahead and only create people who would freely choose him? There's no logical contradiction here, as though we were asking God to create a rock so heavy he couldn't lift it.

      Secondly--this did not come out the debate--but I personally don't see any reason to affirm that people have free will to sin in heaven. I would be quite happy to say that people who have the beatific vision of Christ, who are in the very presence of Christ, are in a sense sealed in the decision they have made during the earthly life, and that they therefore no longer have freedom to sin. I don't have any problem with that. So I would be quite willing to say that in heaven, due to the immediacy of the presence of Christ, that the freedom to sin is removed."
      By this line of reasoning, 'free will' isn't really all that important after all, and heaven would essentially be filled with robots who have no choice but to worship their deity. Also, this seem to completely undermine any theodicy based on the necessity of giving humans free will.

      This is interesting.
      Yeah.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by jordanriver View Post
        wait a minute.

        are you confusing HABITATION and DESTINATION.

        ACTS 17:26 wasn't referring to DESTINATION, as in people deserve it if their destination is hell.

        it refers to HABITATION, as in, where they live , BEFORE they die.


        My response was not about the whole debate, just only about the part that you had said:
        "He seems vulnerable on the point of those people who haven't heard the gospel or even outright reject the message because of native religious enculturation"

        I took that to mean, its not fair because people live where they wont get a chance to hear the gospel.

        AS IF, oops, God forgot about the people who live where the gospel isn't preached.

        But the Bible says there is NO OOPS on God's part. He already determined their habitation. If Bible God knows every individual, then He knows what is the best destination for each one.

        and you cannot say an individual in, say, Sri Lanka or Borneo has less chance of getting reached and saved after hearing what a missionary has to say, than an individual in Christianity Land USA , who lives in a technologically advanced SECULAR culture, with overwhelming influence from the SECULAR media and entertainment and schools.

        did you know there are now missionaries from 3rd world NON-CHRISTIAN countries , that they are now in the USA .

        Just like we from the USA have missionaries in formerly Christian dominated Europe and Eastern Europe, now it looks like Americans are going to have to hear the gospel from new Christians from Asia and Africa pretty soon.

        GEOGRAPHY is no barrier on hearing the gospel. It wasn't a barrier for Pagan Europe when the Christians were in the Middle East, and its not a barrier in the rest of the world now either.
        No one is arguing that it is currently impossible to reach certain geographical locations with the message of Jesus, so I'm not sure what your point is.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Enjolras View Post
          No one is arguing that it is currently impossible to reach certain geographical locations with the message of Jesus, so I'm not sure what your point is.
          POST 5
          To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Enjolras View Post
            I don't see why this wouldn't be 'feasible.' Why couldn't God just look ahead and only create people who would freely choose him?

            Yeah.
            do you wish you had never been born?
            To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Glenn P View Post
              As is sometimes the case with other Christians - and frustratingly so - WLC discusses the problem of hell by not quite talking about it, opting instead to talk about the scope of salvation (rather than the nature of the fate awaiting the lost).
              We have a bona fide hell scholar in the house.
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by jordanriver View Post
                wait a minute.

                are you confusing HABITATION and DESTINATION.

                ACTS 17:26 wasn't referring to DESTINATION, as in people deserve it if their destination is hell.

                it refers to HABITATION, as in, where they live , BEFORE they die.


                My response was not about the whole debate, just only about the part that you had said:
                "He seems vulnerable on the point of those people who haven't heard the gospel or even outright reject the message because of native religious enculturation"

                I took that to mean, its not fair because people live where they wont get a chance to hear the gospel.
                Sorry for the misunderstanding. I understand your view that residency has nothing to do with salvation. I think Craig’s vulnerability here is in not being able to explain the urgency of the great commission. Craig would concede the Bhutanese won’t be reached—they’ll be judged with complete fairness anyway. So what’s the point of the commission, really? Need it be particularly wide-reaching without any discernible QA/QC? Say the Bhutanese are "reached" but by a religious dolt, for example missionaries from Joyce Meyers' or John MacArthur's ministries. Craig doesn’t address the Bhutanese Buddhist's right to comparatively evaluate a missionary presentation and reject it without being eternally “judged” for it.

                I have no quibble if Jesus supports the Bhutanese citizen's right to reject a bad presentation of the gospel. But then that brings us back to the necessity of spreading the gospel if all are ultimately judged fairly.

                Originally posted by jordanriver View Post
                AS IF, oops, God forgot about the people who live where the gospel isn't preached.

                But the Bible says there is NO OOPS on God's part. He already determined their habitation. If Bible God knows every individual, then He knows what is the best destination for each one.
                The implications of that view are staggering. It means God determines the habitation of Ugandan children tortured for being “witches” or Iraqi children under the blade of ISIS. That appears to be more random than engineered from above. I wouldn't pin that determination on God.

                Originally posted by jordanriver View Post
                and you cannot say an individual in, say, Sri Lanka or Borneo has less chance of getting reached and saved after hearing what a missionary has to say, than an individual in Christianity Land USA , who lives in a technologically advanced SECULAR culture, with overwhelming influence from the SECULAR media and entertainment and schools.

                did you know there are now missionaries from 3rd world NON-CHRISTIAN countries , that they are now in the USA .

                Just like we from the USA have missionaries in formerly Christian dominated Europe and Eastern Europe, now it looks like Americans are going to have to hear the gospel from new Christians from Asia and Africa pretty soon.
                I did know the same countries we missionized are coming back to missionize us. Can you guess how successful that will be given that they're just regurgitating the bad Christianity we exported to them? How many of those proselytes have been infected by ministries such as Meyers and MacArthur?

                Originally posted by jordanriver View Post
                GEOGRAPHY is no barrier on hearing the gospel. It wasn't a barrier for Pagan Europe when the Christians were in the Middle East, and its not a barrier in the rest of the world now either.
                Geography is a HUGE barrier, actually. Some places are very hard to reach, and the quality of the presentation, as you well know, is shameful in many cases. Just look at the effect of Catholic missionaries in Rwanda or Pentecostal missionaries in Uganda to see the failure. This encapsulates Craig’s vulnerability on the issue.
                Last edited by whag; 01-01-2015, 06:44 PM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by jordanriver View Post
                  do you wish you had never been born?
                  If, to avoid the catastrophe of lost souls that grieves God tremendously, that seems like a pretty feasible option. I can think of many people for whom not being born would be hugely beneficial to the world. See Joyce Meyers, Kim Jong Un, Nicki Minaj.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Enjolras View Post
                    I don't see why this wouldn't be 'feasible.' Why couldn't God just look ahead and only create people who would freely choose him? There's no logical contradiction here, as though we were asking God to create a rock so heavy he couldn't lift it.
                    Yes! Craig presumes this is impossible with God when it actually has no appearance of infeasibility or logical contradiction. The logical contradiction is in presuming eternal torment for finite crimes is more pleasing to God.



                    Originally posted by Enjolras View Post
                    By this line of reasoning, 'free will' isn't really all that important after all, and heaven would essentially be filled with robots who have no choice but to worship their deity. Also, this seem to completely undermine any theodicy based on the necessity of giving humans free will.
                    I’ve heard this view expressed before in private conversation, and my BS detectors lit up. I’m thankful and quite puzzled that Craig—an erudite and articulate philosopher—actually expressed the view in public. It’s basically an admission that sin needed to be actualized to effect the ultimate environment, which makes all of God’s bellyaching about it in the OT and NT look rather ridiculous since it was inevitable and necessary.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by whag View Post
                      If, to avoid the catastrophe of lost souls that grieves God tremendously, that seems like a pretty feasible option. I can think of many people for whom not being born would be hugely beneficial to the world. See Joyce Meyers, Kim Jong Un, Nicki Minaj.
                      whats the difference between bad people and natural disasters (hurricanes/earthquakes/tsunamis/etc)
                      that's the kind of world we live in.

                      ...i think, who the heck is Nicki Minaj?
                      To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by whag View Post

                        The implications of that view are staggering. It means God determines the habitation of Ugandan children tortured for being “witches” or Iraqi children under the blade of ISIS. That appears to be more random than engineered from above. I wouldn't pin that determination on God.
                        .
                        wow , I don't like to answer with multiple quotes, so I will just pick a few and answer in single post.
                        (each of your answers is a potential whole thread on their own)

                        ok, I don't think the part that God put Ugandan children in Uganda was for the purpose of being tortured, any more than putting Mississippians in Mississippi (known Bible Belt real estate) for the purpose of getting clobbered by tornadoes.

                        the main part you leave out in this answer, is that (BIBLICALLY) God knows the future choices .

                        iow, if God knew before the creation of the universe that some particular human was going to reject Christ no matter what, then, why not let that soul be born in India or Saudi Arabia or the Brazilian Rain Forest

                        of course why create them in the first place, as Enjolras asked:


                        Originally posted by Enjolras View Post
                        I don't see why this wouldn't be 'feasible.' Why couldn't God just look ahead and only create people who would freely choose him?.
                        ok, that's the BIG QUESTION.

                        I don't know.

                        my favorite GUESS is , maybe God couldn't not create them...

                        Here's the deal, (this is rambling, I understand if you not interested in reading further)

                        ....if God knew what a human's choice is going to be, how could God know that if they don't exist (to God outside of time, existence of a human , time is irrelevant, .....right?)

                        So, how do you not create something that already exists.

                        it seems like, once God 'thought of' a human, BOOM, its too late already.
                        its like Stay Puft Marshmallow Man, when Ray thought of it , it was too late already...
                        To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by whag View Post

                          I did know the same countries we missionized are coming back to missionize us. Can you guess how successful that will be given that they're just regurgitating the bad Christianity we exported to them? How many of those proselytes have been infected by ministries such as Meyers and MacArthur?
                          .
                          that's some other 'front' , an in house Christianity tug of war.

                          I don't keep up with that, I don't know what their ministries are about. (I would like to know everything about everything, but I don't seem to have that capacity)

                          I don't spend much time in the "Christianity 201" forum. I like world history and stuff like that mostly. And human evolution books by Johanson, Leakey, Lewin, Gee, Tattersall, Walker and Shipman, because they are fascinating, .

                          Its easier to argue with atheists/agnostics than it is to argue with believers like JWs or Mormons or "oneness" Pentacostals . That's truly frustrating, so I leave that to theologians.

                          ...ok, if there aint any atheists or agnostics around, then maybe I might tackle that other stuff....
                          To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by jordanriver
                            the main part you leave out in this answer, is that (BIBLICALLY) God knows the future choices .

                            iow, if God knew before the creation of the universe that some particular human was going to reject Christ no matter what, then, why not let that soul be born in India or Saudi Arabia or the Brazilian Rain Forest
                            That's a convenient view: people who wouldn't have converted to Christianity anyway are engineered to be born in Islamic and Buddhist countries. You really believe that?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by whag View Post
                              That's a convenient view: people who wouldn't have converted to Christianity anyway are engineered to be born in Islamic and Buddhist countries. You really believe that?
                              I have found that the 'solution' often creates more problems that the original question.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by jordanriver View Post
                                wow , I don't like to answer with multiple quotes, so I will just pick a few and answer in single post.
                                (each of your answers is a potential whole thread on their own)

                                ok, I don't think the part that God put Ugandan children in Uganda was for the purpose of being tortured, any more than putting Mississippians in Mississippi (known Bible Belt real estate) for the purpose of getting clobbered by tornadoes.

                                the main part you leave out in this answer, is that (BIBLICALLY) God knows the future choices .

                                iow, if God knew before the creation of the universe that some particular human was going to reject Christ no matter what, then, why not let that soul be born in India or Saudi Arabia or the Brazilian Rain Forest

                                of course why create them in the first place, as Enjolras asked:




                                ok, that's the BIG QUESTION.

                                I don't know.

                                my favorite GUESS is , maybe God couldn't not create them...

                                Here's the deal, (this is rambling, I understand if you not interested in reading further)

                                ....if God knew what a human's choice is going to be, how could God know that if they don't exist (to God outside of time, existence of a human , time is irrelevant, .....right?)

                                So, how do you not create something that already exists.

                                it seems like, once God 'thought of' a human, BOOM, its too late already.
                                its like Stay Puft Marshmallow Man, when Ray thought of it , it was too late already...
                                Interesting view. God's beholden to actualize his thoughts?

                                Comment

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