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The Great Hell Debate

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  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
    Not to mention the fact that God is said to be all knowing and so would have been fully aware of Abrahams faith and so having no need to test it.
    IF Bible-God is all knowing, then there must be a reason He feels its necessary to go through the process , the exercise.

    I just take His Word for it.
    To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

    Comment


    • Originally posted by jordanriver View Post
      ok, look
      when I said "no I don't think so" in POST 157 after you said "That is how you rationalize it of course, but read the text. Abraham intent was to slay his son, and God was impressed that he was willing and about to do so."

      ....my "I don't think so" did not mean I didn't think Abraham didn't intend to go through with it an obey God

      .my "I don't think so" referred to your claim that it was willingness to child sacrifice that God was impressed with, seeing as how in context, that is how you opened up this mini dialogue in your POST 154 saying "Apparently YHWY thought child sacrifice an honorable thing to do ...."

      I am in THAT CONTEXT, (that you are making the argument that willingness to sacrifice children is what impresses Bible-God)


      .....so of course I do not argue that Abraham fully intended to obey Bible-God , even follow through, because it would not have been faith if Abraham didn't intend to obey God or if Abraham thought Bible-God was a liar.

      ..........LOOK, I don't know how you are doing this, but you are making this a confusing fuzzy discussion.

      so I am going to state MY INTERPRETATION as plain as I can:

      God ordered Abraham to slay Isaac

      Abraham obeyed, up until the time God stopped Abraham.

      God was impressed because as God said ".....for now I know that thou fearest God, ...."

      and Abraham's FAITH is what is cited in Hebrews 11:17 "....By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac....."
      So what? Gods command, whether meant or a lie, that Abraham slay his son was an evil command, and Abrahams intent to carry it through was an evil intention. Why do you condsider faith in such a God a virtue? A good man would have refused to kill his son, and a good God would have recognized such a refusal as a virtue not a flaw.
      ............

      look, if , as you started out, that it was not just faith to obey, but merely ".... child sacrifice an honorable thing to do..."
      THEN WHY DIDNT YAHWEH LET ABRAHAM GO THROUGH WITH IT...
      If God did not think that sacrificing his son was an honorable thing to do in his name, then he would not have expected Abraham to agree to go through with it in the first place.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
        So what? Gods command, whether meant or a lie, that Abraham slay his son was an evil command, and Abrahams intent to carry it through was an evil intention. Why do you condsider faith in such a God a virtue? A good man would have refused to kill his son, and a good God would have recognized such a refusal as a virtue not a flaw...
        If God did not think that sacrificing his son was an honorable thing to do in his name, then he would not have expected Abraham to agree to go through with it in the first place.
        The 70 lb Gorilla, of course, is whether or not this scripture is history or something else; like allegory, parable, liturgy?

        If it is a literal story. If this actually happened, then you have every right to be horrified. It is a terrible story. Who among us would honor a deity who toyed with our love for our children? As a test for loyalty? Fealty? Anyone who has ever lost a child will understand how truly atrocious even the thought of something like this is.

        There is no hermeneutic that can make this story palatable.

        A Shul lesson I had shortly after conversion explained that this story was written as a parable about the horrors of human sacrifice. I can't say that I was totally convinced, knowing the barbarism of humanity in this age.

        The only redemption for this story is that we follow the lead of that Shul and recast this as a parable, and a cultural oddity of the era.

        NORM
        When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

        Comment


        • Originally posted by jordanriver View Post

          look, if , as you started out, that it was not just faith to obey, but merely ".... child sacrifice an honorable thing to do..."
          THEN WHY DIDNT YAHWEH LET ABRAHAM GO THROUGH WITH IT...


          Originally posted by JimL View Post

          If God did not think that sacrificing his son was an honorable thing to do in his name, then he would not have expected Abraham to agree to go through with it in the first place.
          your "if" does not trump my "if"

          Actions are louder than words (or tests)

          and Biblically, Bible-God did not let Isaac be sacrificed.

          apparently Bible-God did not think the human sacrifice was an honorable thing to do in his name.

          and the rest of the Bible is consistent with God's hatred of human sacrifice, note the Bible narrative of Jeremiah, where Bible-God is so disgusted with the child sacrifice, he allowed HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE to be invaded and hauled off to Babylon and put HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE in a starvation punishment that they were forced to resort to cannibalism.

          The Bible does not agree with your mischievous conclusion that God must think its honorable to sacrifice children...

          ........oh, and in case you think you can make the case that , that was only sacrificing to OTHER GODS, SO HE WAS FINE as long as the child sacrifice was to Him

          read Deuteronomy 18:10
          There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch


          is that plain enough, it does not say "to other gods" , it just flat says DONT DO IT.
          To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

          Comment


          • Originally posted by jordanriver View Post
            I just take His Word for it.
            I might do the same, if I had his word for anything. But I don't. All I have is the word of some men telling me that God has told them certain things.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
              I might do the same, if I had his word for anything. But I don't. All I have is the word of some men telling me that God has told them certain things.
              if that's all you have, I don't blame you for being atheist.
              To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

              Comment


              • Originally posted by jordanriver View Post
                your "if" does not trump my "if"

                Actions are louder than words (or tests)

                and Biblically, Bible-God did not let Isaac be sacrificed.

                apparently Bible-God did not think the human sacrifice was an honorable thing to do in his name.

                and the rest of the Bible is consistent with God's hatred of human sacrifice, note the Bible narrative of Jeremiah, where Bible-God is so disgusted with the child sacrifice, he allowed HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE to be invaded and hauled off to Babylon and put HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE in a starvation punishment that they were forced to resort to cannibalism.

                The Bible does not agree with your mischievous conclusion that God must think its honorable to sacrifice children...

                ........oh, and in case you think you can make the case that , that was only sacrificing to OTHER GODS, SO HE WAS FINE as long as the child sacrifice was to Him

                read Deuteronomy 18:10
                There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch


                is that plain enough, it does not say "to other gods" , it just flat says DONT DO IT.
                Yes the bible does agree with my conclusion, and it does so right in this story. God thought it honorable of Abraham to sacrifice his son even though he stopped him at the last second. He rewarded Abraham for his intention to carry out the deed which means that he thought the intentions of Abraham to be honorable intentions. Again, a good God would not test a mans faith by commanding he commit an evil act in his name, and a good man would have failed such a test.
                Last edited by JimL; 01-20-2015, 05:52 AM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  Yes the bible does agree with my conclusion, and it does so right in this story. God thought it honorable of Abraham to sacrifice his son even though he stopped him at the last second. He rewarded Abraham for his intention to carry out the deed which means that he thought the intentions of Abraham to be honorable intentions. Again, a good God would not test a mans faith by commanding he commit an evil act in his name, and a good man would have failed such a test.
                  If God is not "good"
                  ....then, ....what?
                  To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by jordanriver View Post
                    If God is not "good"
                    ....then, ....what?
                    Then its probably not God, and if it is then to hell with him.

                    Comment

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