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The Great Hell Debate

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  • The Great Hell Debate

    One of the best debates on Christian conceptions of Hell is the one with WLC and a philosopher named Raymond Bradley. I'm not familiar with Bradley, but his treatment of the topic in this debate is inspiring. The beginning is good, but cross-examination mode is particularly excellent as the discussion progresses to a discussion on categories and subclassifications of human beings to whom salvation is possible.

    It's a fascinating deep dive into traditional evangelical sorteriology and highly recommended for skeptics and those Christians who struggle with embarrassment when discussing the topic while evangelizing.

    http://youtu.be/oJdlO6esWr8

  • #2
    For those of us who might have useless speakers, here's a transcript.
    Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

    I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

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    • #3
      Originally posted by square_peg View Post
      For those of us who might have useless speakers, here's a transcript.
      Excellent. This is very helpful!

      Comment


      • #4
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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        • #5
          I'll start. I think Craig's main failure is his implication that sin was required to effect the ultimate perfect living environment of Heaven. I also wish Bradley had hammered Craig more on his view of sorteriology. He seems vulnerable on the point of those people who haven't heard the gospel or even outright reject the message because of native religious enculturation. He seems to be saying "God doesn't judge them for not having heard of the gospel but on their response to the general revelation."

          1. What kind of "response" is expected? 2. Doesn't that invalidate the urgency and necessity of spreading the message, which is already prone to erroneous expression by bad messengers?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by whag View Post
            I'll start. I think Craig's main failure is his implication that sin was required to effect the ultimate perfect living environment of Heaven. I also wish Bradley had hammered Craig more on his view of sorteriology. He seems vulnerable on the point of those people who haven't heard the gospel or even outright reject the message because of native religious enculturation. He seems to be saying "God doesn't judge them for not having heard of the gospel but on their response to the general revelation."

            ?
            So what.
            Biblically, its no accident where everybody lives
            Acts 17:26
            To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

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            • #7
              Originally posted by jordanriver View Post
              So what.
              Biblically, its no accident where everybody lives
              Acts 17:26
              That's a given in the debate, but notice that Craig doesn't regard such a shallow response sufficient. He knows Bradley has a more complicated counter in dissecting the concept of Heaven as the ultimate environment where free will and sin co-exist.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by whag View Post
                That's a given in the debate, but notice that Craig doesn't regard such a shallow response sufficient. He knows Bradley has a more complicated counter in dissecting the concept of Heaven as the ultimate environment where free will and sin co-exist.
                shallow?

                ever hear of K.I.S.S. principle.

                well, I guess unless people like to take the long way 'round
                To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by jordanriver View Post
                  shallow?

                  ever hear of K.I.S.S. principle.

                  well, I guess unless people like to take the long way 'round
                  Yes, shallow. A verse and a hand wave doesn't come close to showing you read, or are interested in, the discussion and issues it touched.

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                  • #10
                    Craig:

                    "First of all, it may not be feasible for God to create a world which consists simply of heaven alone, in isolation from the world that leads up to heaven, where people freely choose to go there or not to go there. Secondly--this did not come out the debate--but I personally don't see any reason to affirm that people have free will to sin in heaven. I would be quite happy to say that people who have the beatific vision of Christ, who are in the very presence of Christ, are in a sense sealed in the decision they have made during the earthly life, and that they therefore no longer have freedom to sin. I don't have any problem with that. So I would be quite willing to say that in heaven, due to the immediacy of the presence of Christ, that the freedom to sin is removed."

                    This is interesting.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by whag View Post
                      Yes, shallow. A verse and a hand wave doesn't come close to showing you read, or are interested in, the discussion and issues it touched.
                      No, whag.
                      I wasn't handwaving ALL the issues the debate touches.
                      In context, just that one point you raised, about the people eho never heard the gospel or because of native religious enculturation
                      To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by jordanriver View Post
                        No, whag.
                        I wasn't handwaving ALL the issues the debate touches.
                        In context, just that one point you raised, about the people eho never heard the gospel or because of native religious enculturation
                        The verse doesn't address the difficulty and amounts to a hand wave. "All the people deserve their destinations" isn't really saying anything. We know you believe that.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by whag View Post
                          The verse doesn't address the difficulty and amounts to a hand wave. "All the people deserve their destinations" isn't really saying anything. We know you believe that.
                          "deserve" ??

                          huh whst?
                          To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by jordanriver View Post
                            "deserve" ??

                            huh whst?
                            Sorry, you believe only in hell's case it's deserved.

                            You're saying no debate necessary because Acts 17:26 answers it, but I don't think so. Read or listen to the debate. Craig implies the actualization of sin was necessary to bring about the ultimate environment of Heaven. Without sin, Jesus doesn't perform the harrowing act.

                            Paul is actually wrong about all nations coming from one man (though understandably so, since he was ignorant like everyone else at the time). The fact is that we originated from lower mammals in a far more ambiguous environment than Paul knew.

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                            • #15
                              As is sometimes the case with other Christians - and frustratingly so - WLC discusses the problem of hell by not quite talking about it, opting instead to talk about the scope of salvation (rather than the nature of the fate awaiting the lost).

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