Originally posted by eschaton
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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Weaknesses of atheism
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Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-22-2014, 08:10 PM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostEver notice how much time Shuny spends defending Atheism? Just a bit strange for someone who says they are a theist.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostPlease, let others speak for themselves. You, of course, can rely on your gang of four to agree with you as before.
The atheists know full well my position and belief in God and my attitude toward their world view.Last edited by Tassman; 12-22-2014, 11:37 PM.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostBeen over this many many many times. I attack bad foolish arguments, and from this perspective they are out of date, childish ad foolish. I personally have debated atheists directly, and do not resort to this contrived dishonesty.
I will continue to do this.
Like (supposedly) advancing a position you don't believe in as if you do so as to 'enhance debate'......>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostMisrepresenting me again, bad habit. I responded to specific bad arguments, and please do not misrepresent me by looks like' remarks. In fact my challenges stand and they were not refuted.
Just keep denying it Shuny. Everyone can see right through that easily enough.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostNo, it's not strange. It just means that shuny holds to a different form of theism than you do.
Looks like your arguments are proving effective, shuny given the frustrated responses of those unable to rebut them.
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Why is a thread which is ostensibly directed towards atheists being turned into an Ad Hominem against Shunyadragon? Could we, perhaps, return to discussing the objections actually raised by atheists, including me, in this thread?"[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View PostDiscussions of purported immorality in the Bible are intended to show inconsistencies in Christian ethics. If killing the innocent is always objectively wrong, as Christian ethicists generally contend, and if the Bible contains instances wherein God either commands or condones the murder of the innocent, then there is an inconsistency in Christian ethics which needs to be addressed.
I'll just pick up on this point...
There are lots of possible responses to your objection :
(1) Pointing at (possible) failures in Christian ethics does nothing to validate or ground an atheistic moral position.
(2) You appear to conflate absolute morality (Moral principle X is always true for everyone everywhere) with objective morality (Moral principle X is true no matter who believes it or not)
(3) People killing the innocent is not the same as God killing the innocent. It's not inconsistent for a Christian to claim (say) that it's wrong for people to do X , but not wrong for God to do X.
(4) Some Christians might respond that where the Bible shows God doing X (objectionable), or claims that God endorses X, it's just wrong - God doesn't do or endorse X, the writers of the Bible simply were wrong, or are using God to justify their own misdeeds.
(5) Some Christians might argue that your interpretation of the Bible is incorrect, where you think it shows God doing X, or condoning X, He doesn't in fact do so (this would depend on the specifics of what passages you're thinking of)....>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...
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Originally posted by MaxVel View PostI'll just pick up on this point...
(1) Pointing at (possible) failures in Christian ethics does nothing to validate or ground an atheistic moral position.
(2) You appear to conflate absolute morality (Moral principle X is always true for everyone everywhere) with objective morality (Moral principle X is true no matter who believes it or not)
(3) People killing the innocent is not the same as God killing the innocent. It's not inconsistent for a Christian to claim (say) that it's wrong for people to do X , but not wrong for God to do X.
(4) Some Christians might respond that where the Bible shows God doing X (objectionable), or claims that God endorses X, it's just wrong - God doesn't do or endorse X, the writers of the Bible simply were wrong, or are using God to justify their own misdeeds.
(5) Some Christians might argue that your interpretation of the Bible is incorrect, where you think it shows God doing X, or condoning X, He doesn't in fact do so (this would depend on the specifics of what passages you're thinking of).
My intention was not to imply that all Christian ethical philosophies are inconsistent-- I would certainly cringe at hearing such an overbroad generalization. However, when offered specific ethical claims by a Christian, it is not inappropriate to question how he reconciles those claims with passages from his holy text which might seem to contradict the claim."[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by MaxVel View PostYou prefer other kinds of dishonesty, right?
Like (supposedly) advancing a position you don't believe in as if you do so as to 'enhance debate'...Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostWell there you go Shuny. You have Tassman on your side. My case is proven.
It would help if you focused on the thread topic instead of personal attacks.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostIf you were remotely familiar with debating classes, workshops and debating clubs on University campuses, you would realize this is a legitimate debating technique to practice debating and not dishonest. I have participated in debating clubs, classes and workshops while in college and it is often the case that you are assigned a topic and position you do not believe or care about, to practice your debating skills. I have done this in the past.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostAd Hominem and dishonest misrepresentation big time!?!?!?!
...well, with Tassman, that might be true. Hmmm.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe 'utility monster' is from Robert Nozick's thought experiment concerning ethics, morality and purpose. This does not fit Aristotle. Eshaton actually admits part of the confusion in the above post. He felt it fit the 'imitating?' God.
Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems, such as those connected with reality, existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language
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Originally posted by eschaton View PostLet me inform you on the meaning of philosophy.
Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems, such as those connected with reality, existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language
The 'utility monster' is from Robert Nozick's thought experiment concerning ethics, morality and purpose. This does not fit Aristotle. Eshaton actually admits part of the confusion in the above post. He felt it fit the 'imitating?' GodGlendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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