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Richard Beck on Universalism and Theodicy

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  • #31
    Originally posted by whag View Post
    I don't have any proof that most Christians accept the fact of evolution and post-modern interpretations of soteriology. That was more wishful thinking on my part.
    Much like the "fact of evolution"? It may be a well-supported theory in your opinion, but it is still a theory.

    In the United States, at any rate, the denominations that take the bible less seriously than they once did have been hemorrhaging members, while those that still take the bible seriously are maintaining or growing in membership.
    Just curious, what's your proof that most Christians take the bible more literally?
    Like KG, I would not link a literal reading of the bible (or Genesis in particular) with post-modernism. Please don't attribute the association YOU postulated to me.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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    • #32
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      Please don't attribute the association YOU postulated to me.
      He does that.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        Much like the "fact of evolution"? It may be a well-supported theory in your opinion, but it is still a theory.
        This is called a PRATT. I should refuse to refute Points Refuted A Thousand Times, except to say that theories are frameworks to organize facts. They are not guesses or hunches.

        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        In the United States, at any rate, the denominations that take the bible less seriously than they once did have been hemorrhaging members, while those that still take the bible seriously are maintaining or growing in membership.
        Cults like LDS are also growing.

        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        Like KG, I would not link a literal reading of the bible (or Genesis in particular) with post-modernism. Please don't attribute the association YOU postulated to me.
        Of course a literal reading isn't post modern. That's archaic. A non-literal evolutionary reading is post modern because evolution is post modern. Evolution provided the mechanism for the evolutionary reading to explode in popularity, which is why there are so many Christians who accept the fact.

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        • #34
          "Postmodern" seems to be one of those slippery words that eludes a simple definition, and in this thread I see it being used to describe everything from inclusive/pluralistic views of Christianity (which is what I initially thought you were more focusing on), to views informed by modern scholarship. Given that definition, any modern biblical scholarship, even conservative evangelical scholarship, might be viewed as "postmodern" due to it being informed by recent writers. If that's the route we're going, I don't think the term is particularly useful.
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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          • #35
            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
            "Postmodern" seems to be one of those slippery words that eludes a simple definition, and in this thread I see it being used to describe everything from inclusive/pluralistic views of Christianity (which is what I initially thought you were more focusing on), to views informed by modern scholarship. Given that definition, any modern biblical scholarship, even conservative evangelical scholarship, might be viewed as "postmodern" due to it being informed by recent writers. If that's the route we're going, I don't think the term is particularly useful.
            I brought it up because you said a universalist position is tortuous to defend biblically for seeming lack of support. So, too, are a lot of interpretations, including ECT. Lazarus asks for cool water in a hot hell, not a respite from extreme mental agony. The lines between the figurative and literal blur, IOW.

            If you'd prefer "liberal" to post modern, that works for me. I'd argue that scholarship has had to accommodate liberal interpretations to accord with the fact of evolution and also the evolution of morals. For instance, today we have a much more detailed understanding of religion and enculturation, so we've had to modify the soteriology. Jonathon Edwards no longer has a place in the discussion.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by whag View Post
              This is called a PRATT. I should refuse to refute Points Refuted A Thousand Times, except to say that theories are frameworks to organize facts. They are not guesses or hunches.
              This is called burning a strawman. I do not claim that theories are guesses or hunches.
              Cults like LDS are also growing.
              How is that relevant?
              Of course a literal reading isn't post modern. That's archaic. A non-literal evolutionary reading is post modern because evolution is post modern.
              I don't think you understand what post-modernism is.
              Evolution provided the mechanism for the evolutionary reading to explode in popularity, which is why there are so many Christians who accept the fact.
              If a theory can be read into scripture in some fashion, of course promulgation of the theory will increase the popularity of that reading.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                This is called burning a strawman. I do not claim that theories are guesses or hunches.
                In that case, saying it's "just a theory" is a non sequitur, since theories are frameworks to organize facts. IOW, they're founded on units of strong evidence and serve a useful purpose.

                What did you mean by "just a theory"?

                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                How is that relevant?
                Because the growth of a particular religion doesn't mean anything. You didn't present any data that showed conservative Christianity is growing all over the world.

                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                I don't think you understand what post-modernism is.

                If a theory can be read into scripture in some fashion, of course promulgation of the theory will increase the popularity of that reading.
                Exactly. That's why many Christians accept evolution as part of the general revelation and don't regard Genesis as wrong but merely figurative.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by whag View Post
                  In that case, saying it's "just a theory" is a non sequitur, since theories are frameworks to organize facts. IOW, they're founded on units of strong evidence and serve a useful purpose.

                  What did you mean by "just a theory"?
                  Try consulting a dictionary. "Theory" and "fact" have different meanings.
                  Because the growth of a particular religion doesn't mean anything.
                  We were discussing Christianity, not all religions. Are you capable of having a discussion without continuously moving the goalposts?
                  You didn't present any data that showed conservative Christianity is growing all over the world.
                  I don't recall making that claim either. Quit attempting to shift the burden of proof.
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    Try consulting a dictionary. "Theory" and "fact" have different meanings.
                    A scientific theory is composed of facts, hence the germ theory of disease and gravitation theory. Do you accept the facts of germs and gravity? Those are facts, like evolution is a fact.

                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    We were discussing Christianity, not all religions.
                    No, we were talking about global Christianity:

                    Originally posted by OBP
                    most Christians do not hold to post-modern interpretations of the Bible; I'm fairly certain that most Muslims do not hold to post-modern interpretations of the Koran either.
                    then you shifted the goal posts to US Christians:

                    Originally posted by OBP
                    In the United States, at any rate, the denominations that take the bible less seriously than they once did have been hemorrhaging members, while those that still take the bible seriously are maintaining or growing in membership.
                    Try proving what you originally claimed.

                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    I don't recall making that claim either. Quit attempting to shift the burden of proof.
                    Decide what you're claiming and stop waffling.

                    Comment

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