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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Ted Kirkpatrick and Animal Cruelty
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Originally posted by whag View PostI don't have a position as such. I think I'm forming a position as I analyze the opinions of people like Kirkpatrick and consider the effects of what I put into my body. Eating is one of those acceptable vices, no less tied to harm and irresponsibility as, say, smoking.
In an ideal world, I'd love to be able to walk to a local marketplace every day and buy locally grown organic non-GMO produce and very small amounts of meat. I used to eat way too much store-bought and fast food meat, so I'm doing better.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostBut what is your position? That we should not kill and eat animals?
In an ideal world, I'd love to be able to walk to a local marketplace every day and buy locally grown organic non-GMO produce and very small amounts of meat. I used to eat way too much store-bought and fast food meat, so I'm doing better.
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Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View PostYou said this earlier.
So, are basically admitting that you didn't know, and now that you simply don't care?
Like I said earlier, it wouldn't have been about the sheep dying, but that it was put to an unjust use. Nathan(you keep saying Samuel) would also have needed to make some kind of parallel to Bathsheba. Therefore this is not evidence that this was a pet, nor that this was a common thing to happen. You're taking a story that's intended to help parallel stealing someone's wife with one stealing someone's sheep. There's obviously some hyperbole here in order to convey a point.
Nathan's story, and again, ANE hyperbole comes into play here.
I said I had seen people turn off their empathy and compassion towards other human beings. You said that it must be due to some "offense". I was giving you the information that that was not the case. I've seen this more than once. Hopefully the "switch" can be turned, and then locked in the other direction.
Maybe not entirely, but I hope you weren't "entirely correct" about sacrifices of Native Americans either.
[cite-National Geographic]Making the story even more interesting was the clear evidence of ritual human sacrifice. Archaeologists excavating Mound 72, as they labeled it, found the
remains of 53 women and one very high status man, as well as the decapitated remains of four men who may have been on the wrong side of some sort of
authority. The discovery belied the common belief that American Indians lived in egalitarian communities without the sorts of often brutally maintained
hierarchies that defined many other civilizations. Was Cahokia an empire, like the Mesoamerican civilizations to the south? It was too soon to tell, but
something spectacular had happened here, and it became clear this was a mystery worth trying to solve.[/cite]
Source.
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Originally posted by whag View PostIt doesn’t matter that it’s a parable or what the point was. I didn’t say it was real and didn’t say the parable made a particular point.
Originally posted by whag View PostI know exactly what they're about. Unless you're arguing that the pet lamb's owners didn't have a semblance of love for their lamb and the shepherd didn't have compassion for his trapped lamb, you don't have a point. There's nuance in these stories.
snip
I didn’t say David was upset about the sheep, though he was secondarily (not primarily), as you admit. My point was that sheep were valued like daughters. It’s an even better illustration of ANE people loving animals than i initially thought.
You’re right. I stand corrected.
I stand corrected. Samuel’s parable better demonstrated that sheep could be pets and deeply loved.
I extrapolated too much.
I don’t know what you’re talking about.
I said I had seen people turn off their empathy and compassion towards other human beings. You said that it must be due to some "offense". I was giving you the information that that was not the case. I've seen this more than once. Hopefully the "switch" can be turned, and then locked in the other direction.
Leviticus 1:9 but its entrails and its legs he shall wash with water. And the priest shall burn all of it on the altar, as a burnt offering, a food offering with a pleasing aroma to the Lord.”
Like I said, Adrift wasn’t entirely correct. Some sacrifices wasted all the meat.
[cite-National Geographic]Making the story even more interesting was the clear evidence of ritual human sacrifice. Archaeologists excavating Mound 72, as they labeled it, found the
remains of 53 women and one very high status man, as well as the decapitated remains of four men who may have been on the wrong side of some sort of
authority. The discovery belied the common belief that American Indians lived in egalitarian communities without the sorts of often brutally maintained
hierarchies that defined many other civilizations. Was Cahokia an empire, like the Mesoamerican civilizations to the south? It was too soon to tell, but
something spectacular had happened here, and it became clear this was a mystery worth trying to solve.[/cite]
Source.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostIt's not an ad hoc explanation but knowledge based on the observation of living organisms in the natural world.
We are a social species, along with most other simians, because we have evolved as social species via chance mutations (i.e. natural selection) over eons. Just as many other creatures have evolved to live in isolation or have a large brain or a strong sense of smell or live in water or live on land etc, via the same process.
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Still not getting what point Whag is trying to make. Yes, we do care for animals. And, yes we do kill and eat animals, too. The two are not mutually exclusive.
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Originally posted by MaxVel View PostIt's a very usfeul thing, that natural selection.
It can explain just about anything - from the shape of our faces, to why we are social, to why we have moral values, to why some people have different moral values, to why we are altruistic...
(except when we're not)...
Just great, natural selection. And it's all down to chance.
Your smug attempt at mocking sarcasm is noted.
Originally posted by MaxVel View PostDifferent cultures certainly see the same animals very differently.
The SE Asian culture I live in values dogs a lot less than most Western cultures - stray dogs aren't really cared for - a few kind souls feed them etc.
Snipped.Last edited by Tassman; 12-11-2014, 04:35 AM.
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Different cultures certainly see the same animals very differently.
The SE Asian culture I live in values dogs a lot less than most Western cultures - stray dogs aren't really cared for - a few kind souls feed them etc. Rats are acceptable as food - these are 'field rats' that mainly eat rice etc, not so much city rats. Rabbits are pets, the idea of eating them is unthinkable to people here - but then there is no wild rabbit population here.
WHen I was in France, many people wanted to know if New Zelanders ate our national animal (a kiwi) - of course we don't! They're rare, and a protected species. But the French national animal is a rooster, so it makes sense to eat your national animal (to them).
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It's a very usfeul thing, that natural selection. It can explain just about anything - from the shape of our faces, to why we are social, to why we have moral values, to why some people have different moral values, to why we are altruistic (except when we're not)...
Just great, natural selection. And it's all down to chance.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostTo me, this seems to be a personification, if not deification (in the Platonic sense), of evolution, and an ad hoc, at best, explanation for why we are a social species.
We are a social species, along with most other simians, because we have evolved as social species via chance mutations (i.e. natural selection) over eons. Just as many other creatures have evolved to live in isolation or have a large brain or a strong sense of smell or live in water or live on land etc, via the same process.
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