Originally posted by whag
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Ted Kirkpatrick and Animal Cruelty
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Read Temple Grandin. This is pretty basic stuff.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostFrom observation, we indeed know that we are a social species. Observation does not tell us why or how we are a social species, however.
I am familiar with the general theory of evolution via natural selection, thanks. You're extrapolating from the physiological to the psychological realm, which is chancy because we don't have a very good grasp of how those interrelate.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostRead Temple Grandin. This is pretty basic stuff.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post“How” we have become a social species is due to random favourable mutations over very long periods of time.
There is no “why”, in the sense of purpose-directed evolution, merely the chance outcome of favourable mutations.
I'm not extrapolating from the physiological to the psychological realm. I'm referring to the evolved natural instinct of 'survival' which, in the case of a social species like us, predisposes us toward cooperative behaviour. In short, for our species, cooperative social behaviour is a survival mechanism.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYou've asserted that already. Proving such is another matter entirely.
I'm not referring to "why" in that sense. Why would two organisms spontaneously cooperate?
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/altruism-biological/
And in doing so, you are extrapolating, for the reason I mentioned before.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostI suggest you do a crash course in Natural Selection. It remains the primary explanation for adaptive evolution and is accepted as undisputed fact by virtually every scientist worldwide. It is the foundation of modern biology.
Because of the well understood phenomenon of ‘biological altruism’ whereby examples are found even “among creatures that are (presumably) not capable of conscious thought at all, e.g. insects. For the biologist, it is the consequences of an action for reproductive fitness that determine whether the action counts as altruistic, not the intentions, if any, with which the action is performed. Altruistic behaviour is common throughout the animal kingdom, particularly in species with complex social structures”.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/altruism-biological/
No I'm not. The ‘survival instinct’ is the driving force of the evolutionary process and well supported by the evidence. It’s a characteristic of every living organism. In our case, and that of all social species, it predisposes us toward cooperative behaviour as a survival mechanism.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostPsychology is not biology.
This explains what happens, not why it came about.
Why should there be a 'survival instinct'? And why should it predispose us toward cooperative behaviour? Cooperation takes two (or more) for success. If I have this phantom cooperation mutation (assuming, for the sake of argument, that there is some genetic basis for instinct) and my companions do not, by helping them I'm increasing their chances for survival, not mine.Last edited by whag; 12-13-2014, 06:41 PM.
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Originally posted by whag View Post1. Extrapolation is a useful function in science. 2. What's the problem of extrapolating the natural development of eusociality? What better hypotheses do you have for eusociality that makes more sense than the hypotheses science has extracted from the pieces of available evidence?Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostExtrapolation is useful if one can establish a relationship between what you know and what you don't.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostRight now, all I see is unproven assumption, with evolutiondidit replacing goddidit. I find it interesting that modern science came about because belief in the Christian/Jewish God engendered a belief that the universe was rationally designed and thus could be systematically investigated, and now many people are convinced that the universe came to be from random chance, yet still can be systematically investigated. Sorry for going so far off topic.
IOW, eusociality isn't a controversy, but you're trying to say it is. Most smart Christians don't have a problem with it, so you look fringe.
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Originally posted by whag View PostThat's so hugely off topic, I can't forgive it. "Proof" is a strawman--or you really don't know the difference between proof and evidence. Again, what better hypotheses do you have for eusociality that makes more sense than the hypotheses science has extracted from the pieces of available evidence? We know biology and behavior develop, so it certainly isn't the speculative hoo-ha you're implying it is.
IOW, eusociality isn't a controversy, but you're trying to say it is. Most smart Christians don't have a problem with it, so you look fringe.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostIOW, you have no answer, so you deliberately misconstrue my position as opposing the idea of eusociality rather than the putative rationale for the evolution of such. I did find this exercise in mental gymnastics interesting, but it replaces one untestable (and demonstrated to be such) hypothesis with another. The "how" is most certainly "speculative hoo-ha."
Fixed it for ya, and you still look fringe. Only creationists call godit/evodidit a false dichotomy. Progressive Christians sure don't have a problem with cooperative behavior evolving. How else do you think it came about?
I'm guessing you're an anti-evolutionist?
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Originally posted by whag View PostIOW, THE DEVELOPMENT OF eusociality isn't a controversy, but you're trying to say it is. Most smart Christians don't have a problem with THE DEVELOPMENT OF EUSOCIALITY, so you look fringe.
Fixed it for ya, and you still look fringe. Only creationists call godit/evodidit a false dichotomy. Progressive Christians sure don't have a problem with cooperative behavior evolving. How else do you think it came about?
I'm guessing you're an anti-evolutionist?Last edited by One Bad Pig; 12-13-2014, 10:41 PM.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostWell, I'm certainly not a "progressive Christian", whatever that is. I'm also fairly certain that most Christians would not self-identify as such, but feel free to offer contrary evidence. I'm also sensing some circular reasoning in your bald assertion that "most smart Christians don't have a problem with the development of Eusociality." I am indeed a creationist. If that makes me 'fringe' in your view, perhaps you need to revisit your definition of 'fringe.' I'm guessing that qualification for MENSA membership makes me not dumb, but OTOH I don't know that you're operating with a typical definition of smart. I'm beginning to suspect that "smart" in your world means "agrees with whag."
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostPsychology is not biology.
This explains what happens, not why it came about.
Why should there be a 'survival instinct'?
And why should it predispose us toward cooperative behaviour?
Cooperation takes two (or more) for success.
If I have this phantom cooperation mutation (assuming, for the sake of argument, that there is some genetic basis for instinct)
and my companions do not, by helping them I'm increasing their chances for survival, not mine.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostTo whag
I am indeed a creationist.Last edited by Tassman; 12-13-2014, 11:30 PM.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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