Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Ted Kirkpatrick and Animal Cruelty

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    Then there's:

    Proverbs 12:10 Whoever is righteous has regard for the life of his beast, but the mercy of the wicked is cruel.

    Exodus 23:4-5 If you meet your enemy’s ox or his donkey wandering away, you shall surely return it to him. If you see the donkey of one who hates you lying helpless under its load, you shall refrain from leaving it to him, you shall surely release it with him.

    Exodus 23:12 Six days you shall do your work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; that your ox and your donkey may have rest, and the son of your servant woman, and the alien, may be refreshed.


    So, the Bible does talk about not treating animals unjustly. I don't think it makes any sort of PETA type arguments though, and it has no problem with the sacrificing and eating of animals, or using animals for work, but it does seem to preach against forcing animals to suffer just to suffer.
    Yes, I agree. We were put in charge of this world and the animals in Genesis. Treating animals with respect is important.

    Leave a comment:


  • Adrift
    replied
    Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    Because of the injustice done to the man who owned it, not due to the slaughtering of the lamb.



    That's a parable about people who are lost. So, it wasn't about the "plight of our animal kin", but the way God treats those who are lost.

    Bad examples for the intended point.
    Then there's:

    Proverbs 12:10 Whoever is righteous has regard for the life of his beast, but the mercy of the wicked is cruel.

    Exodus 23:4-5 If you meet your enemy’s ox or his donkey wandering away, you shall surely return it to him. If you see the donkey of one who hates you lying helpless under its load, you shall refrain from leaving it to him, you shall surely release it with him.

    Exodus 23:12 Six days you shall do your work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; that your ox and your donkey may have rest, and the son of your servant woman, and the alien, may be refreshed.


    So, the Bible does talk about not treating animals unjustly. I don't think it makes any sort of PETA type arguments though, and it has no problem with the sacrificing and eating of animals, or using animals for work, but it does seem to preach against forcing animals to suffer just to suffer.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    The more a person is divorced from the source of their food, the more they tend to idealize and be saddened by how we get it. Someone who has only ever bought a steak at a grocery store, will be more "traumatized" by seeing a cow shot and butchered than someone who was raised having to hunt for meat and do their own butchering. Especially if they were raised watching things like Disney cartoons that anthropomorphize animals (e.g. Lion King, or Ice Age)

    Leave a comment:


  • Cerebrum123
    replied
    Originally posted by whag View Post
    It doesn't have to be either/or. King David was outraged at Samuel's story of the pet lamb that was killed.
    Because of the injustice done to the man who owned it, not due to the slaughtering of the lamb.

    Jesus tells the story of a trapped lamb to affect our emotions. We empathized with the plight of our animal kin well before the industrial age, but as Adrift said, enculturation plays a part.
    That's a parable about people who are lost. So, it wasn't about the "plight of our animal kin", but the way God treats those who are lost.

    Bad examples for the intended point.

    Leave a comment:


  • seer
    replied
    Originally posted by whag View Post
    It doesn't have to be either/or. King David was outraged at Samuel's story of the pet lamb that was killed. Jesus tells the story of a trapped lamb to affect our emotions. We empathized with the plight of our animal kin well before the industrial age, but as Adrift said, enculturation plays a part.
    Well it seems that we can turn off our our empathy at will. And that is the point, it is not a "programmed" behavior.

    Leave a comment:


  • whag
    replied
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Then that kind of undermines the idea that we were "programmed" by the evolutionary process for specific behaviors.
    It doesn't have to be either/or. King David was outraged at Samuel's story of the pet lamb that was killed. Jesus tells the story of a trapped lamb to affect our emotions. We empathized with the plight of our animal kin well before the industrial age, but as Adrift said, enculturation plays a part.

    Leave a comment:


  • seer
    replied
    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    We also often hear about the mistreatment of work elephants in Asian countries, and of course the extermination of elephants in Africa for ivory. I think its more a nurture thing than it is a nature one. People before the industrial age were likely generally far less squeamish about seeing animals killed and suffering than they are today.
    Then that kind of undermines the idea that we were "programmed" by the evolutionary process for specific behaviors.

    Leave a comment:


  • Adrift
    replied
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    I don't get this. Then why is it so easy to turn off our empathy when it serves our more selfish needs? Like killing cute little baby seals?
    We also often hear about the mistreatment of work elephants in Asian countries, and of course the extermination of elephants in Africa for ivory. I think its more a nurture thing than it is a nature one. People before the industrial age were likely generally far less squeamish about seeing animals killed and suffering than they are today.

    Leave a comment:


  • seer
    replied
    Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
    Evolution programmed us to be capable of empathy. That was necessary for us to exist as a social species. Our empathy is triggered by certain sensory data, mostly visual. Evolution had no occasion to fine-tune our brains to the point where our empathy could not be triggered by similar data from creatures not of our own species.
    I don't get this. Then why is it so easy to turn off our empathy when it serves our more selfish needs? Like killing cute little baby seals?

    Leave a comment:


  • Tassman
    replied
    Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
    I'm not sure sadness at suffering can be that finely graded. Certainly I am more offended by elephant suffering than I am by snail suffering.
    I think we naturally identify with creatures that are closer to us in intelligence. Thus we can empathise with other self-aware mammals, such as chimps, elephants and dolphins but much less so with slugs or insects which are alien to us.
    Last edited by Tassman; 12-10-2014, 03:33 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • whag
    replied
    Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
    Evolution programmed us to be capable of empathy. That was necessary for us to exist as a social species. Our empathy is triggered by certain sensory data, mostly visual. Evolution had no occasion to fine-tune our brains to the point where our empathy could not be triggered by similar data from creatures not of our own species.
    That's the explanation that makes the most sense to me.

    Leave a comment:


  • Doug Shaver
    replied
    Originally posted by whag View Post
    Teleologically, do we know why animal suffering--whether natural (like the above) or human caused (like factory meat production)--makes human beings sad? Maybe it's just a cultural construct or an anthropomorphic projection.
    Evolution programmed us to be capable of empathy. That was necessary for us to exist as a social species. Our empathy is triggered by certain sensory data, mostly visual. Evolution had no occasion to fine-tune our brains to the point where our empathy could not be triggered by similar data from creatures not of our own species.
    Last edited by Doug Shaver; 12-09-2014, 10:16 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • whag
    replied
    Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
    I'm not sure sadness at suffering can be that finely graded. Certainly I am more offended by elephant suffering than I am by snail suffering.
    Hard to get much more coarse-grained than that. =) I used to know a bully who burned slugs with a magnifying glass. I still have the horrible image of the squirming creature in my brain.

    Still hungry?

    Leave a comment:


  • pancreasman
    replied
    Originally posted by whag View Post
    How do we compare that lion cub's level of consciousness to a chimp's? Seeing both species suffer like that makes me equally sad, but maybe I should be sadder for the chimp.
    I'm not sure sadness at suffering can be that finely graded. Certainly I am more offended by elephant suffering than I am by snail suffering.

    Leave a comment:


  • whag
    replied
    Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
    Hmm. I don't think it is. I think it's part of broader, inclusive principe of reciprocity and defensible from that perspective. The closer an animal is to a a state of consciousness similar to mine, the more I abhor its suffering.
    How do we compare that lion cub's level of consciousness to a chimp's? Seeing both species suffer like that makes me equally sad, but maybe I should be sadder for the chimp.

    Leave a comment:

Related Threads

Collapse

Topics Statistics Last Post
Started by little_monkey, 08-13-2022, 03:09 AM
193 responses
933 views
0 likes
Last Post One Bad Pig  
Started by tabibito, 05-12-2022, 10:42 PM
42 responses
299 views
0 likes
Last Post tabibito  
Started by Alien, 03-31-2022, 02:43 PM
1,993 responses
10,799 views
0 likes
Last Post little_monkey  
Started by rstrats, 02-13-2021, 12:23 PM
59 responses
512 views
0 likes
Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
Working...
X