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Ted Kirkpatrick and Animal Cruelty

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    Yeah. He was reading into it, but that seems to be his shtick around here. When he can't come up with anything, he'll twist what someone else is saying. I've seen him do it a few times already, and I'm not sure its even worth pointing out since its pretty obvious to anyone who's reading the thread.
    Steady on. It's a reasonable thread. Let's focus on the ideas rather than the personalities (he said in his most school master-ish voice).

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
      Yeah, but it never existed, and was to make a point to David about Bathsheba.
      It doesnít matter that itís a parable or what the point was. I didnít say it was real and didnít say the parable made a particular point.

      Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
      Also, David was primarily upset about the injustice to the poor man, not about the sheep itself.
      I didnít say David was upset about the sheep, though he was secondarily (not primarily), as you admit. My point was that sheep were valued like daughters. Itís an even better illustration of ANE people loving animals than i initially thought.

      Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
      You are confusing two very different things said by Jesus. The one about the sheep in a pit was to point out the hypocrisy of His opponents. You are probably thinking of the lost sheep, which the shepherd went out to find. And even then the subject was not really sheep, but people. Just as Jesus' parable of the sower wasn't about planting crops.
      Youíre right. I stand corrected.

      Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
      The trapped sheep wasn't a parable, and no, that's not the point. It was comparing how the Pharisees would easily get one of their own animals out of a pit on the sabbath, but they were unwilling to help their fellow man on the sabbath. The latter being worth far more. Pointing out their self righteous, and hypocritical stance was the point.
      I stand corrected. Samuelís parable better demonstrated that sheep could be pets and deeply loved.

      Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
      Now I'm pretty sure you're reading stuff into Adrift's post, as I highly doubt he thinks we are "programmed" in any way like that. Also, his point was that treating animals properly is the right thing to do according to the Bible.
      I extrapolated too much.

      Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
      Um, there was no offense committed, and yeah, it was like a switch was flipped. I've seen these kinds of "switches" happen more than once(different people). It wasn't just a "lack of empathy" that was switched to in one case, but a real hatefulness to it.
      I donít know what youíre talking about.

      Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
      ETA: Yeah, regarding priests eating ashes.
      Deuteronomy 12:27 Present your burnt offerings on the altar of the Lord your God, both the meat and the blood. The blood of your sacrifices must be poured beside the altar of the Lord your God, but you may eat the meat.
      Leviticus 1:9 but its entrails and its legs he shall wash with water. And the priest shall burn all of it on the altar, as a burnt offering, a food offering with a pleasing aroma to the Lord.Ē

      Like I said, Adrift wasnít entirely correct. Some sacrifices wasted all the meat.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        To me, this seems to be a personification, if not deification (in the Platonic sense), of evolution, and an ad hoc, at best, explanation for why we are a social species.
        It's not an ad hoc explanation but knowledge based on the observation of living organisms in the natural world.

        We are a social species, along with most other simians, because we have evolved as social species via chance mutations (i.e. natural selection) over eons. Just as many other creatures have evolved to live in isolation or have a large brain or a strong sense of smell or live in water or live on land etc, via the same process.
        ďHe felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.Ē - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • #49
          It's a very usfeul thing, that natural selection. It can explain just about anything - from the shape of our faces, to why we are social, to why we have moral values, to why some people have different moral values, to why we are altruistic (except when we're not)...

          Just great, natural selection. And it's all down to chance.
          ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

          Comment


          • #50
            Different cultures certainly see the same animals very differently.

            The SE Asian culture I live in values dogs a lot less than most Western cultures - stray dogs aren't really cared for - a few kind souls feed them etc. Rats are acceptable as food - these are 'field rats' that mainly eat rice etc, not so much city rats. Rabbits are pets, the idea of eating them is unthinkable to people here - but then there is no wild rabbit population here.

            WHen I was in France, many people wanted to know if New Zelanders ate our national animal (a kiwi) - of course we don't! They're rare, and a protected species. But the French national animal is a rooster, so it makes sense to eat your national animal (to them).
            ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
              It's a very usfeul thing, that natural selection.
              Not "useful" as such, merely established fact.

              It can explain just about anything - from the shape of our faces, to why we are social, to why we have moral values, to why some people have different moral values, to why we are altruistic...
              What it explains is why we are the way we are, i.e. a social species, and why we are genetically predisposed towards cooperative community behavior. This is demonstrably the case - from our complex social structures with towns and cities, to team sports, to theatrical productions and symphony orchestras. ALL activities requiring a high degree of cooperative behaviour. And such cooperative behaviour is found in every corner of the world. It's instinctive.

              (except when we're not)...
              ...which is explained by the tribal nature of more primitive societies whereby altruism is displayed within the tribe but often not beyond it.

              Just great, natural selection. And it's all down to chance.
              Correct, itís all down to the chance, random mutations which favour survival and to the incremental changes over eons. This as opposed to the god-did-it hypothesis!

              Your smug attempt at mocking sarcasm is noted.

              Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
              Different cultures certainly see the same animals very differently.

              The SE Asian culture I live in values dogs a lot less than most Western cultures - stray dogs aren't really cared for - a few kind souls feed them etc.

              Snipped.
              Stray dogs in Buddhist countries like Thailand are left in the temple grounds for the monks to care for as opposed "putting them down", which we tend to do in the West. This is unacceptable for Buddhists.
              Last edited by Tassman; 12-11-2014, 04:35 AM.
              ďHe felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.Ē - Douglas Adams.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by whag View Post
                Suffering is a relative term.
                then it has no real meaning.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Still not getting what point Whag is trying to make. Yes, we do care for animals. And, yes we do kill and eat animals, too. The two are not mutually exclusive.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    then it has no real meaning.
                    Maybe it's a necessary part of existence and needn't be remedied.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      Still not getting what point Whag is trying to make. Yes, we do care for animals. And, yes we do kill and eat animals, too. The two are not mutually exclusive.
                      I'm not making a point but just started a discussion.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by whag View Post
                        I'm not making a point but just started a discussion.
                        But what is your position? That we should not kill and eat animals?

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                          It's not an ad hoc explanation but knowledge based on the observation of living organisms in the natural world.
                          From observation, we indeed know that we are a social species. Observation does not tell us why or how we are a social species, however.
                          We are a social species, along with most other simians, because we have evolved as social species via chance mutations (i.e. natural selection) over eons. Just as many other creatures have evolved to live in isolation or have a large brain or a strong sense of smell or live in water or live on land etc, via the same process.
                          I am familiar with the general theory of evolution via natural selection, thanks. You're extrapolating from the physiological to the psychological realm, which is chancy because we don't have a very good grasp of how those interrelate.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. Ė St. John Chrysostom

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by whag View Post
                            It doesnít matter that itís a parable or what the point was. I didnít say it was real and didnít say the parable made a particular point.
                            You said this earlier.

                            Originally posted by whag View Post
                            I know exactly what they're about. Unless you're arguing that the pet lamb's owners didn't have a semblance of love for their lamb and the shepherd didn't have compassion for his trapped lamb, you don't have a point. There's nuance in these stories.

                            snip
                            So, are basically admitting that you didn't know, and now that you simply don't care?

                            I didnít say David was upset about the sheep, though he was secondarily (not primarily), as you admit. My point was that sheep were valued like daughters. Itís an even better illustration of ANE people loving animals than i initially thought.
                            Like I said earlier, it wouldn't have been about the sheep dying, but that it was put to an unjust use. Nathan(you keep saying Samuel) would also have needed to make some kind of parallel to Bathsheba. Therefore this is not evidence that this was a pet, nor that this was a common thing to happen. You're taking a story that's intended to help parallel stealing someone's wife with one stealing someone's sheep. There's obviously some hyperbole here in order to convey a point.

                            Youíre right. I stand corrected.


                            I stand corrected. Samuelís parable better demonstrated that sheep could be pets and deeply loved.
                            Nathan's story, and again, ANE hyperbole comes into play here.

                            I extrapolated too much.


                            I donít know what youíre talking about.

                            I said I had seen people turn off their empathy and compassion towards other human beings. You said that it must be due to some "offense". I was giving you the information that that was not the case. I've seen this more than once. Hopefully the "switch" can be turned, and then locked in the other direction.

                            Leviticus 1:9 but its entrails and its legs he shall wash with water. And the priest shall burn all of it on the altar, as a burnt offering, a food offering with a pleasing aroma to the Lord.Ē

                            Like I said, Adrift wasnít entirely correct. Some sacrifices wasted all the meat.
                            Maybe not entirely, but I hope you weren't "entirely correct" about sacrifices of Native Americans either.

                            [cite-National Geographic]Making the story even more interesting was the clear evidence of ritual human sacrifice. Archaeologists excavating Mound 72, as they labeled it, found the
                            remains of 53 women and one very high status man, as well as the decapitated remains of four men who may have been on the wrong side of some sort of
                            authority. The discovery belied the common belief that American Indians lived in egalitarian communities without the sorts of often brutally maintained
                            hierarchies that defined many other civilizations. Was Cahokia an empire, like the Mesoamerican civilizations to the south? It was too soon to tell, but
                            something spectacular had happened here, and it became clear this was a mystery worth trying to solve.[/cite]

                            Source.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                              You said this earlier.



                              So, are basically admitting that you didn't know, and now that you simply don't care?



                              Like I said earlier, it wouldn't have been about the sheep dying, but that it was put to an unjust use. Nathan(you keep saying Samuel) would also have needed to make some kind of parallel to Bathsheba. Therefore this is not evidence that this was a pet, nor that this was a common thing to happen. You're taking a story that's intended to help parallel stealing someone's wife with one stealing someone's sheep. There's obviously some hyperbole here in order to convey a point.







                              Nathan's story, and again, ANE hyperbole comes into play here.








                              I said I had seen people turn off their empathy and compassion towards other human beings. You said that it must be due to some "offense". I was giving you the information that that was not the case. I've seen this more than once. Hopefully the "switch" can be turned, and then locked in the other direction.



                              Maybe not entirely, but I hope you weren't "entirely correct" about sacrifices of Native Americans either.

                              [cite-National Geographic]Making the story even more interesting was the clear evidence of ritual human sacrifice. Archaeologists excavating Mound 72, as they labeled it, found the
                              remains of 53 women and one very high status man, as well as the decapitated remains of four men who may have been on the wrong side of some sort of
                              authority. The discovery belied the common belief that American Indians lived in egalitarian communities without the sorts of often brutally maintained
                              hierarchies that defined many other civilizations. Was Cahokia an empire, like the Mesoamerican civilizations to the south? It was too soon to tell, but
                              something spectacular had happened here, and it became clear this was a mystery worth trying to solve.[/cite]

                              Source.
                              Clearly, we were wrong about burnt offerings and parables. I think you're wrong about the parable being hyperbole. People in the ANE were accustomed to the concept of livestock as pets. David believed the story of a man who loved a sheep like it was his daughter was true. That's what you aren't getting.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                But what is your position? That we should not kill and eat animals?
                                I don't have a position as such. I think I'm forming a position as I analyze the opinions of people like Kirkpatrick and consider the effects of what I put into my body. Eating is one of those acceptable vices, no less tied to harm and irresponsibility as, say, smoking.

                                In an ideal world, I'd love to be able to walk to a local marketplace every day and buy locally grown organic non-GMO produce and very small amounts of meat. I used to eat way too much store-bought and fast food meat, so I'm doing better.

                                Comment

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