Originally posted by robrecht
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Canaanite Psalms
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostNo I am not. My references [are?] to the lack of Hebrew scripture is prior to the 6th Century. All the known Hebrew scripture is found from the 6th century onward.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI rely on sources who are competent in the Canaanite and Hebrew written languages, not my own expertise.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostBut you have not always understood the sources you are citing. Were you to study these languages, you would no doubt be able to better understand. Likewise, if you were to read Avraham Faust's material directly, rather than relying on Internet summaries, you would better understand his positions and argumentation. A little more basic history of the Ancient Near East would also be helpful.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostIf you object cite him directly and show my error, which you have failed to do.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostInstead you inserting opinion for sources.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe fact is there are absolutely no, Hebrew scripture prior to the 6th century. If you can prove otherwise, please cite sources.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostI have already pointed you to the book, page and footnote numbers. If I get time, I will type out the relevant material.
Yes, I have given you Faust's opinion and I have cited the source. I just have not reproduced the source.
Once again, this point is not in dispute.
If you want to contest the source I cited, I would like to see the source, not opinions.Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-23-2014, 11:30 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostBeing a distinct group, or Israel functioned as an 'agriculturally-based/sedintary socioethnic entity in the late thirteenth century B.C.' as Faust describes does not translate to a significant political power. Especially since Faust describes them as 'this this is simply impossible: Society of Judah was too depleted and poor to have supported such a huge literary project. Bible scholars, he concludes, will have to take the reality that archeologists present into account when developing their theories of how the Bible was produced.'
I am exploring other sources and books and post more.
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostThis point is not in dispute. But there are various theories and hypotheses as to when and how the Hebrew scriptures were composed.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostYour citations were not relevant to the issue of whether pre-exilic Hebrews were capable of composing scripture.
If you want to contest the source I cited, I would like to see the source, not opinions.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostDo you think the section you bolded is referring to the 13th century BC?
Still waiting for sources that conflict with what I cited.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostYes there are various theories, but this is too vague to be of value in a debate.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostIt refers to the period of Hebrew history prior to the return from exile and those that remained in Palestine during the exile period.
Still waiting for sources that conflict with what I cited.
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostI doubt he's being intentionally dishonest. Rather, he does not really grasp some of the matters he is trying to discuss, which is true of many people here, when they start debating historical and archaeological issues regarding languages that they have never studied let alone mastered. It may be the case that he occasionally realizes some of his errors and is not inclined to admit his previous misunderstandings, and that is indeed a form of dishonesty, but it is sometimes very hard to determine when and whether or not he has become aware of his misunderstandings, if he will not admit this openly. This is a complaint I have against many if not most Internet apologetic and anti-apologetic discussions. The goal is to score points against an opponent and not to learn new knowledge. The people I know who have learned and taught Akkadian and Ugaritic are the first to admit how much we do not know but would like to know, what are theories and hypotheses, and what their own levels of proficiency are in the various extant bodies of literature.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostAir ball!!!!!!
It's an exact description of whats happening.
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Shuny, would you agree that if evidence were uncovered that helped scholars date the time of the Exodus from Egypt as c1446 BC you would have to concede that the Hebrews were a distinct group well before living in Canaan since then?The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu
[T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations
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Description of Iron Age I Judah by Faust.
This describes a minor tribe well. The more distinctive cultural identity came in Iron Age II, but the written language remain Canaanite/proto Hebrew, and no written scripture.Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-24-2014, 08:00 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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