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Canaanite Psalms

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  • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    If you think that, then there is simply no reasoning with you.
    Please cite specific evidence where the pre exile Judah produced any scripture.

    from Avraham Faust's Israel's Ethnogenesis, Chapter 16, Menerptah's Israel:


    Not only does the stele indicate that Israel was a group in the late thirteenth-century BCE Canaan, it also implies that it was of some importance as far as the Egyptians were concerned (e.g. Stager 1985a: 61; Yurco 1991: 61; Bimson 1991: 22-23; Hasel 1994: 54; Dever 1995a: 208; see also Chapter 18) in their mentioning it and taking pride in claiming to have defeated it, along with several major cities. In Hasel's words: 'our study ... has given additional support to the understanding that Israel functioned as an agriculturally-based/sedintary socioethnic entity in the late thirteenth century B.C., one that is significant enough to be included in the military campaign against political powers in Canaan' (1994: 54). More will be said on this much later.
    A selective reference of Hebrews in ancient Judah being a distinctive group is described in more places, such as his description of their houses, but being distinctive tribe among the many Canaanite tribes does not translate into being an advanced distinctive culture that produced an written scripture. If you read all of Faust's work you would realize this is the issue that pre exile Judah was not capable of producing the scripture.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-22-2014, 08:57 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      The evidence you cited was fragmentary at best and wishful thinking.
      Have you even attempted to read Day et al's In Search of Pre-Exilic Israel? It's a fairly comprehensive survey of scholarship, and could not reasonably be considered "fragmentary at best" or "wishful thinking" by an honest reader.
      "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
      --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

      Comment


      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        Please cite specific evidence where the pre exile Judah produced any scripture.
        Sorry, Shuny, that's not what I was refuting. So cut it out with the strawman arguments. You made a claim that they were nothing more than a "minor pastoral tribe". Even Faust disagrees with that.



        A selective reference of Hebrews being a distinctive group is described in more places, such as his description of their houses, but being distinctive tribe among the many Canaanite tribes does not being an advanced distinctive culture that produced an written scripture. If you read all of Faust's work you would realize this is the issue.
        Too bad that wasn't the claim I was refuting. You made a claim that they were "minor" until the Exile, which is demonstrably false, and even your source agrees. So, just fess up that you made an error and move on.
        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        - Stephen R. Donaldson

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
          Have you even attempted to read Day et al's In Search of Pre-Exilic Israel? It's a fairly comprehensive survey of scholarship, and could not reasonably be considered "fragmentary at best" or "wishful thinking" by an honest reader.
          I will get this book and read it. It hangs on what he calls 'pre-exilic source.' Since there is no known pre-exilic Hebrew scripture, I will have to see how much he relies on Canaanite and Babylonian sources.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
            Sorry, Shuny, that's not what I was refuting. So cut it out with the strawman arguments. You made a claim that they were nothing more than a "minor pastoral tribe". Even Faust disagrees with that.
            No he does not, as cited he describes an impoverish culture not capable of producing the scripture claimed to be the source of the Tanakh.


            Too bad that wasn't the claim I was refuting. You made a claim that they were "minor" until the Exile, which is demonstrably false, and even your source agrees. So, just fess up that you made an error and move on.
            No error here read the reference again. Please provide a reference that any Hebrew pre-exilic scripture of the Tanakh exists. Still waiting . . .
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              No he does not, as cited he describes an impoverish culture not capable of producing the scripture claimed to be the source of the Tanakh.

              You're simply deluded. He included them with other political powers of the 13th century BC, so your claim that they were a "minor pastoral tribe" up until the exile is complete and utter nonsense.


              No error here read the reference again. Please provide a reference that any Hebrew pre-exilic scripture of the Tanakh exists. Still waiting . . .
              You've shifted the goalposts, Shuny, and you think that counts as even marginally acceptable debate tactics. It's pathetic.
              That's what
              - She

              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
              - Stephen R. Donaldson

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                You're simply deluded. He included them with other political powers of the 13th century BC, so your claim that they were a "minor pastoral tribe" up until the exile is complete and utter nonsense.

                You've shifted the goalposts, Shuny, and you think that counts as even marginally acceptable debate tactics. It's pathetic.
                No shifting the goal posts at all one of the main conclusion of Faust's works is 'the pre-exilic Judah was not capable of producing the scripture, and there is no evidence they ever did. Having some distinctive characteristics is simply an easy conclusion of any tribe within a greater culture like the Canaanites. Still waiting . . .
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  No shifting the goal posts at all
                  Horse malarkey. In this very thread, in post 37, you said specifically:

                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  There is no evidence that the Hebrews were a distinctive culture prior to ~500 to 600 BCE. Again, showmeproof considers ancient Hebrews as Canaanites, and not a distinctive culture nor society.
                  So, you ARE moving the goalposts.


                  one of the main conclusion of Faust's works is 'the pre-exilic Judah was not capable of producing the scripture, and there is no evidence they ever did. Having some distinctive characteristics is simply an easy conclusion of any tribe within a greater culture like the Canaanites. Still waiting . . .
                  Again, you are being purposefully obtuse. The evidence is abundantly there that the Jews were a separate politically important power WELL BEFORE 600 BC. You lost that point. Just give it up already.
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  - Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    From this thread http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...n-Age-I-and-II

                    Source: Source: Ancient Israel Through a Social Scientific Lens by Yigal Levin - Biblical Archaeological Review




                    In conclusion, Faust charges some scholars with "inventing" a continuity of settlement between the end of the Iron Age (i.e., the destruction of the Kingdom of Judah) and the Persian and Hellenistic periods in order to show that the society of Babylonian and Persian-period Judah was capable of producing many texts of the Bible, which they date to this period. In Faust's opinion, this this is simply impossible: Society of Judah was too depleted and poor to have supported such a huge literary project. Bible scholars, he concludes, will have to take the reality that archeologists present into account when developing their theories of how the Bible was produced.

                    Much of what Faust writes is controversial, and he, too, has an agenda - especially in The Archeology of Desolation, in which he explicitly takes his opponents to task for using the archaeological data selectively in accordance with their preconceived views. But as long as he admits his own preconceived agenda openly, as he does, this is legit. In both books, Faust takes the archaeological evidence and uses it to present his view of life in Israel and Judah in the periods of the monarchy. Others will undoubtedly argue a different interpretation. As long as this is done in a way that is collegial and based on facts, this is actually the way scholarship advances.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    © Copyright Original Source


                    I believe Faust presents a firm archeological foundation for what I have proposed in other threads and dialogues. The Pentateuch and other books of the OT like the Psalms were first compiled from none Hebrew sources, and edited and added to later with other Hebrew writings to make up the OT and other related writings.
                    Shuny, it seems as if you are completely missing Faust's point here. He is actually using archaeological evidence, and lack thereof, to argue against a more recent trend of some biblical minimalists (that Judah was not completely destroyed during the Babylonian exile) and thus indirectly support the traditional biblical perspective that the legitimate Judean culture was in exile. Faust has a very strong view of early Israelite ethnicity as supported from Iron Age I archaeological finds and of the monarchy as supported by Iron Age II archaeological finds.
                    Last edited by robrecht; 12-22-2014, 12:22 PM.
                    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                      Shuny, it seems as if you are completely missing Faust's point here. He is actually using archaeological evidence, and lack thereof, to argue against a more recent trend of some biblical minimalists (that Judah was not completely destroyed during the Babylonian exile) and thus indirectly support the traditional biblical perspective that the legitimate Judean culture was in exile. Faust has a very strong view of early Israelite ethnicity as supported from Iron Age I archaeological finds and of the monarchy as supported by Iron Age II archaeological finds.
                      Not related to the subject. Reread the following

                      Source: Source: Source: Ancient Israel Through a Social Scientific Lens by Yigal Levin - Biblical Archaeological Review



                      In conclusion, Faust charges some scholars with "inventing" a continuity of settlement between the end of the Iron Age (i.e., the destruction of the Kingdom of Judah) and the Persian and Hellenistic periods in order to show that the society of Babylonian and Persian-period Judah was capable of producing many texts of the Bible, which they date to this period. In Faust's opinion, this this is simply impossible: Society of Judah was too depleted and poor to have supported such a huge literary project. Bible scholars, he concludes, will have to take the reality that archeologists present into account when developing their theories of how the Bible was produced.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      Note high lighted: Faust supports the view that pre-exilic Judah was not capable of producing the scripture, and there is no evidence that they did.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                        Faust claims that Iron Age Judah could not have supported a huge literary project, in the passage you cited. He doesn't claim that "they were not capable of producing any scripture before the exile" in the quoted text, nor does he claim that the Pentateuch, Psalms, and other OT texts were simply edited Canaanite texts.

                        So, again, does Faust actually make the claims that you are making?
                        The claims I am making are clearly in conformity with Faust's view. If they able to produce a little scripture, they are able to produce a lot of scripture, which is not supported by the evidence. To support my view there does not exist any evidence of pre-exilic Hebrew scripture.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                          You keep saying that the Hebrews were minor tribes. Is that just more empty rhetoric or do you have something specific in mind that allows you differentiate among minor and major pastoral tribes?
                          Where is the archeological evidence that they were anything other then a minor tribe? Faust provides some evidence of distinctiveness, but not much.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                            Easy. Minor tribes were those tribes in the bronze age who mined the bronze, carrying in huge plastic bags to the surface to be distributed to the hungry.

                            We are still telling lies to be devil's advocate, aren't we?
                            Need help here with elementary school English. The word is 'minor' not miner. Sarcasm noted without meaningful response.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              Not related to the subject. Reread the following

                              Source: Source: Source: Ancient Israel Through a Social Scientific Lens by Yigal Levin - Biblical Archaeological Review



                              In conclusion, Faust charges some scholars with "inventing" a continuity of settlement between the end of the Iron Age (i.e., the destruction of the Kingdom of Judah) and the Persian and Hellenistic periods in order to show that the society of Babylonian and Persian-period Judah was capable of producing many texts of the Bible, which they date to this period. In Faust's opinion, this this is simply impossible: Society of Judah was too depleted and poor to have supported such a huge literary project. Bible scholars, he concludes, will have to take the reality that archeologists present into account when developing their theories of how the Bible was produced.

                              © Copyright Original Source



                              Note high lighted: Faust supports the view that pre-exilic Judah was not capable of producing the scripture, and there is no evidence that they did.
                              No, you are still missing his point entirely. The Babylonian and Persian periods were post-exilic, not pre-exilic! He is speaking of the 6th-century period of the destruction of the Temple and the two deportations to Babylon and then the liberation by the Persians that followed upon the Babylonian exile. And during this time of devastation, he specifically does not say that scribal activity and scriptural creation was impossible. Rather, explicitly leaves this as an open question.

                              See Avraham Faust. Judah in the Neo-Babylonian Period: The Archaeology of Desolation. Atlanta: SBL, 2012. See pp. 253-4, including footnote 15.
                              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                Where is the archeological evidence that they were anything other then a minor tribe? Faust provides some evidence of distinctiveness, but not much.
                                This is completely nonresponsive. Here again is my question to you about your use of your own words:
                                "You keep saying that the Hebrews were minor tribes. Is that just more empty rhetoric or do you have something specific in mind that allows you differentiate among minor and major pastoral tribes?"

                                If you are unable to explain your own use of such a simple term, I can only conclude that it is more empty rhetoric on your part.
                                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                                Comment

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