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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Canaanite Psalms
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"The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostKetef amulets are 6th century, not from the book of Psalms. One shard of poetry with proto Hebrew/Canaanite writing does not make a distinctive culture.
Showmeproof is correct in his assessment that up until the exile the Hebrews were genetically and culturally minor Canaanite pastoral tribesβλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe existence of the Psalms is the main subject of the thread.
All the present archeological evidence indicates that the Hebrews were minor Canaanite pastoral tribes with no distinctive written language nor culture.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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From this thread http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...n-Age-I-and-II
© Copyright Original Source
I believe Faust presents a firm archeological foundation for what I have proposed in other threads and dialogues. The Pentateuch and other books of the OT like the Psalms were first compiled from none Hebrew sources, and edited and added to later with other Hebrew writings to make up the OT and other related writings.Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-21-2014, 06:55 PM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI believe Faust presents a firm archeological foundation for what I have proposed in other threads and dialogues. The Pentateuch and other books of the OT like the Psalms were first compiled from none Hebrew sources, and edited and added to later with other Hebrew writings to make up the OT and other related writings.
Does Faust actually make such a claim?"[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View PostNothing in the passage which you've cited supports that claim. There's a fairly large difference between "scholars need to take archaeology into account when discussing Biblical development" and the claim that "the Pentateuch and other books of the OT like the Psalms were first compiled from [non-Hebrew] sources."
Does Faust actually make such a claim?Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-21-2014, 08:34 PM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostFaust made the claim that they were not capable of producing any scripture before the exile as many claim, and backed it up with archeology. They were minor pastoral Canaanite tribes, The evidence is clear the scripture was written later based on Canaanite, pre, Babylonian, and Babylonian sources, then edited and added to after the exile, when compared to cuneiform Canaanite and Babylonian libraries. Yes, after the exile the Hebrews compiled added their own history and edited the existing literature and wrote the Pentateuch, Psalms and the added rest of the scripture of the Tanakh.
So, again, does Faust actually make the claims that you are making?"[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe archeological and linguistic evidence is that the Hebrews were in reality minor pastoral tribes of Canaanites with predominately Canaanite language, scripture and culture up until ~600 BCE.Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI also believe like showmeproof that the Hebrews were actually minor pastoral Canaanites up until about 600 BCE by the archeological evidence.Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostAll the present archeological evidence indicates that the Hebrews were minor Canaanite pastoral tribes with no distinctive written language nor culture.Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostShowmeproof is correct in his assessment that up until the exile the Hebrews were genetically and culturally minor Canaanite pastoral tribesOriginally posted by shunyadragon View PostThey were minor pastoral Canaanite tribes ...βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostYou keep saying that the Hebrews were minor tribes. Is that just more empty rhetoric or do you have something specific in mind that allows you differentiate among minor and major pastoral tribes?
We are still telling lies to be devil's advocate, aren't we?
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostThat is absolute nonsense. All of the available archaeology confirms that the Hebrews were distinct enough to have had a monarchy and be named specifically by their enemies as a formidable nation well through the 9th Century BC.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostPlease cite the evidence.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by pancreasman View PostEasy. Minor tribes were those tribes in the bronze age who mined the bronze, carrying in huge plastic bags to the surface to be distributed to the hungry.
We are still telling lies to be devil's advocate, aren't we?That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
Comment
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostI have. Twice. And BP cited my evidence once as well.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe evidence you cited was fragmentary at best and wishful thinking.
The research by Faust goes into extensive detail into the actual archeological evidence of pre-exile Judah, and there were no fortresses, temples, Iron Age industry, or other indications of a distinctive culture that could possibly produce the Pentateuch, Psalms and other books of the Tanakh, as well as absolutely no evidence of the existence of scripture before the exile.
Not only does the stele indicate that Israel was a group in the late thirteenth-century BCE Canaan, it also implies that it was of some importance as far as the Egyptians were concerned (e.g. Stager 1985a: 61; Yurco 1991: 61; Bimson 1991: 22-23; Hasel 1994: 54; Dever 1995a: 208; see also Chapter 18) in their mentioning it and taking pride in claiming to have defeated it, along with several major cities. In Hasel's words: 'our study ... has given additional support to the understanding that Israel functioned as an agriculturally-based/sedintary socioethnic entity in the late thirteenth century B.C., one that is significant enough to be included in the military campaign against political powers in Canaan' (1994: 54). More will be said on this much later.
[pg. 163]That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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