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Canaanite Psalms

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  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    There in fact actually no evidence of the Hebrew Book of Psalms existing prior to 1 AD. It was a good argument to use this technique.
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    There are NO early texts of the Book of Psalms ever found only indirect text evidence, which will get you a cup of coffee at McDonalds for 2 bucks unless you are a senior citizen
    The Greek translation of the whole Hebrew psalter is generally dated to the 3rd-2nd c BCE and the Qumran texts of the psalms, as well as noncanonical pslams, are typically dated to the 2nd-1st c BCE. It is generally acknowledged that the Hebrew in which many of the psalms were composed was considerably older than these earliest textual witnesses to the Hebrew scriptures based on the apparent difficulty that the translators and Qumran scribes had with some of the grammar and vocabulary of the psalms. I, of course, have no objection to seeing the influence of earlier semitic language and literature, eg, Ugaritic, in the psalms. Aramaic, Hebrew and Ugaritic are closely related Northwest Semitic languages. I'm not sure why you or anyone else would consider this controversial.
    Last edited by robrecht; 12-19-2014, 02:03 PM.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

    Comment


    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      I will give some recommendations on logic and debating in later posts.
      While I would welcome these as well, I asked for recommendations of institutions which offer "serious college level courses" that are "specifically on debating." I did not ask for your opinions of logic and debating.

      Actually since the only evidence for the Book of Psalms before AD are found in Canaanite texts, and the influence of language, poetic devices, and vocabulary is heavy throughout the Psalms, there has been no evidence-contrary-to- my-assumed-position presented. There in fact actually no evidence of the Hebrew Book of Psalms existing prior to 1 AD. It was a good argument to use this technique.
      As has been pointed out, this is factually incorrect. Furthermore, there is no "evidence for the Book of Psalms" found in Canaanite texts, contrary to your implication. There are Canaanite parallels to specific psalms, but there is no Canaanite psalter which parallels the collection of Hebrew Psalms in its entirety.

      You know, for someone who was only playing Devil's Advocate, you're still latched onto your false presumptions pretty tightly.
      "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
      --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

      Comment


      • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
        The Greek translation of the whole Hebrew psalter is generally dated to the 3rd-2nd c BCE and the Qumran texts of the psalms, as well as noncanonical pslams, are typically dated to the 2nd-1st c BCE. It is generally acknowledged that the Hebrew in which many of the psalms were composed was considerably older than these earliest textual witnesses to the Hebrew scriptures based on the apparent difficulty that the translators and Qumran scribes had with some of the grammar and vocabulary of the psalms. I, of course, have no objection to seeing the influence of earlier semitic language and literature, eg, Ugaritic, in the psalms. Aramaic, Hebrew and Ugaritic are closely related Northwest Semitic languages. I'm not sure why you or anyone else would consider this controversial.
        Ok there are texts from the first century BCE I was 100 years off. In the previous posts I gave compiled after ~600 to 500 BCE. I will stick with that time span, compiled and written in Hebrew after the exile..
        Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-19-2014, 03:33 PM.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          Ok there are texts from the first century BCE I was 100 years off. In the previous posts I gave compiled after ~600 to 500 BCE. I will stick with that time span, compiled and written in Hebrew after the exile..
          What are you trying to argue, here? It's still entirely unclear just what point you are attempting to make.

          Are you trying to claim that all of the Psalms are pre-Exilic and directly derive from Canaanite texts?
          "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
          --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

          Comment


          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            Actually since the only evidence for the Book of Psalms before AD are found in Canaanite texts, and the influence of language, poetic devices, and vocabulary is heavy throughout the Psalms, there has been no evidence-contrary-to- my-assumed-position presented. There in fact actually no evidence of the Hebrew Book of Psalms existing prior to 1 AD. It was a good argument to use this technique.
            Based on this Wikipedia "Batman" entry
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman
            I believe there probably was no evidence of any Batman stories before May 1939. It is thus reasonable to conclude that Superman stories (ca. 1933 per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman ) heavily influenced the early Batman stories. Hence the conclusion: Batman stories are derivative. IOW they are Superdynomanite.
            The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

            [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

            Comment


            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              Ok there are texts from the first century BCE I was 100 years off. In the previous posts I gave compiled after ~600 to 500 BCE.
              That's not what you were claiming. In post 37, you claimed "There is no evidence that the Hebrews were a distinctive culture prior to ~500 to 600 BCE", which I thoroughly refuted.
              That's what
              - She

              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
              - Stephen R. Donaldson

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                That's not what you were claiming. In post 37, you claimed "There is no evidence that the Hebrews were a distinctive culture prior to ~500 to 600 BCE", which I thoroughly refuted.
                No you did not refute this. There I no evidence of Hebrew Psalms before ~600-500 BCE
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  No you did not refute this. There I no evidence of Hebrew Psalms before ~600-500 BCE
                  Are you on acid or something? You claimed in post 37 that the Hebrews weren't a distinct people prior to 500-600 BC. I refuted THAT. That was your initial claim about the 500-600 BC time frame. Now, you are moving the goal post to the Psalms existing in that time frame.
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  - Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • Looks like this thread is another successful defense of Christianity by shunyadragon.
                    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                    Comment


                    • Second Inning Scorecard

                      Being completely ignorant of any Semitic languages, Shunya continues to avoid any and all discussion of essential evidence that must be accounted for in any intelligent discussion of early Hebrew language and culture:
                      1. Adrift 33: 10th century Khirbet Qeiyafa inscription and two 7th/6th century Ketef Hinnom amulets
                      2. Shunya 35 skips over these ancient Hebrew texts
                      3. Shunya 37: There is no evidence that the Hebrews were a distinctive culture prior to ~500 to 600 BCE. Again, showmeproof considers ancient Hebrews as Canaanites, and not a distinctive culture nor society. They did not have their own distinctive written language until after ~600 - 500 BCE.
                      4. Shunya 44: There is no evidence that the Hebrews were a distinct culture and society prior to ~600 BCE. There is also no evidence that the Hebrews wrote the Book of Psalms. This is simply an assertion on your part, and in contradiction to the evidence cited by showmeproof.
                      5. Shunya 46: The archeological and linguistic evidence is that the Hebrews were in reality minor pastoral tribes of Canaanites with predominately Canaanite language, scripture and culture up until ~600 BCE.
                      6. Bill the Cat 58 (responding to Shunya 37: ‘There is no evidence that the Hebrews were a distinctive culture prior to ~500 to 600 BCE.’): Um, no. The Mesha stele, the Kurkh Monoliths, the Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III, Tel Dan Stele, the Nimrud Slab, the Nimrud Tablet K.3751, Sargon II's Prism A, the Siloam inscription, the Lachish relief, and the Azekah Inscription all pre-date your time frame here and show the Kingdom of Israel existing as an organized and distinct group centuries before.
                      7. Shunya ignores
                      8. Bill the Cat reposts 58 in 86
                      9. Shunya ignores Bill the Cat’s question in 131, 134
                      10. Bill the Cat 141 brings up again Shunya’s claim in 37
                      11. Shunya deflects in 142
                      12. Bill the Cat 143 points out that Shunya is avoiding his claim in 37
                      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                        Being completely ignorant of any Semitic languages, Shunya continues to avoid any and all discussion of essential evidence that must be accounted for in any intelligent discussion of early Hebrew language and culture:
                        1. Adrift 33: 10th century Khirbet Qeiyafa inscription and two 7th/6th century Ketef Hinnom amulets
                        2. Shunya 35 skips over these ancient Hebrew texts
                        3. Shunya 37: There is no evidence that the Hebrews were a distinctive culture prior to ~500 to 600 BCE. Again, showmeproof considers ancient Hebrews as Canaanites, and not a distinctive culture nor society. They did not have their own distinctive written language until after ~600 - 500 BCE.
                        4. Shunya 44: There is no evidence that the Hebrews were a distinct culture and society prior to ~600 BCE. There is also no evidence that the Hebrews wrote the Book of Psalms. This is simply an assertion on your part, and in contradiction to the evidence cited by showmeproof.
                        5. Shunya 46: The archeological and linguistic evidence is that the Hebrews were in reality minor pastoral tribes of Canaanites with predominately Canaanite language, scripture and culture up until ~600 BCE.
                        6. Bill the Cat 58 (responding to Shunya 37: ‘There is no evidence that the Hebrews were a distinctive culture prior to ~500 to 600 BCE.’): Um, no. The Mesha stele, the Kurkh Monoliths, the Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III, Tel Dan Stele, the Nimrud Slab, the Nimrud Tablet K.3751, Sargon II's Prism A, the Siloam inscription, the Lachish relief, and the Azekah Inscription all pre-date your time frame here and show the Kingdom of Israel existing as an organized and distinct group centuries before.
                        7. Shunya ignores
                        8. Bill the Cat reposts 58 in 86
                        9. Shunya ignores Bill the Cat’s question in 131, 134
                        10. Bill the Cat 141 brings up again Shunya’s claim in 37
                        11. Shunya deflects in 142
                        12. Bill the Cat 143 points out that Shunya is avoiding his claim in 37
                        Splendid research and summary but I suspect, in the end, fruitless.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                          Are you on acid or something? You claimed in post 37 that the Hebrews weren't a distinct people prior to 500-600 BC. I refuted THAT. That was your initial claim about the 500-600 BC time frame. Now, you are moving the goal post to the Psalms existing in that time frame.
                          The existence of the Psalms is the main subject of the thread.

                          All the present archeological evidence indicates that the Hebrews were minor Canaanite pastoral tribes with no distinctive written language nor culture.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                            Being completely ignorant of any Semitic languages, Shunya continues to avoid any and all discussion of essential evidence that must be accounted for in any intelligent discussion of early Hebrew language and culture:
                            [LIST=1][*]Adrift 33: 10th century Khirbet Qeiyafa inscription and two 7th/6th century Ketef Hinnom amulets
                            Ketef amulets are 6th century, not from the book of Psalms. One shard of poetry with proto Hebrew/Canaanite writing does not make a distinctive culture.

                            Showmeproof is correct in his assessment that up until the exile the Hebrews were genetically and culturally minor Canaanite pastoral tribes
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              The existence of the Psalms is the main subject of the thread.

                              All the present archeological evidence indicates that the Hebrews were minor Canaanite pastoral tribes with no distinctive written language nor culture.
                              Looks like the usual Shuny dance to ignore all his mistakes and errors continues...
                              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                                Looks like the usual Shuny dance to ignore all his mistakes and errors continues...
                                Just shows how much of a hypocrite he is when he calls others "Duck, Bob, and Weave".

                                Comment

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