Where is the evidence for any, I mean any other possible source.
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Canaanite Psalms
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostWhere is the evidence for any, I mean any other possible source. If you read the references, there is more evidence then just some of the psalms. There is style, vocabulary, same poetic verse and style, and origin of the language.
Still waiting for any other evidence for a possible source of the Book of Psalms???The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu
[T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations
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Been through all of this before Shuny. Do you have a problem with the Jews assimilating Ugaritic hymns into Jewish cultic worship?That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThis subject has been addressed in detail in a number of threads in the past, but here goes again. The only archeological and internal text evidence we have available is that the Book of Psalms is a Canaanite text, possibly edited later when added to Hebrew scripture. We have no other evidence for the origins of the Book of Psalms.
I was told that much of the Psalms were compiled in the 5thBCE through about 70CE. Possible Canaanite authorship is not something I've heard discussed before. I do understand that much of what is attributed to David is not correct. What difference does it make where the Psalms come from? Many hymns in the Christian church have other-than-Christian origins.
I think Kumbaya is "traditional."
Also, I whispered the original lyrics to Louie-Louie in Richard Berry's ear during a drunken weekend in Jamaica.
"Scout's Honor." Me gotta go now...
NORMWhen the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostBeen through all of this before Shuny. Do you have a problem with the Jews assimilating Ugaritic hymns into Jewish cultic worship?Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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This reminds me of the charges that Jesus is just a copy of Mithra, based on cherry picking similarities and ignoring the differences, (Mithra born of a rock, and Mithra's "primeval struggle with Ahura Mazda's first creation, a wild bull, which he subdued and confined to a cave..." and possesses 10,000 eyes and ears and rides in a chariot drawn by white horses" (according to the Avesta) (from p 167 ENCYCLOPEDIA OF GODS isbn 0816029091)
so I am gonna grab a couple books off the shelf, and I sure don't feel like typing all the text that doesn't match the Bible (its easier to type the similarities, cherry picking is always easier)
so I just gonna post 4 pages from two different books and everybody can look for similarities to Psalms or Proverbs or the rest of the Bible
URARIT AND MINOAN CRETE Cyrus H. Gordon 1966 W.W.Norton & Company, Inc (pages 44/45 and 46/47)
STORIES FROM ANCIENT CANAAN Michael David Coogan (pages 44/45 and 46/47)
URARIT AND MINOAN CRETE Cyrus H_ Gordon pages 44-45.jpgURARIT AND MINOAN CRETE Cyrus H. Gordon pages 46-47.jpgSTORIES FROM ANCIENT CANAAN Michael David Coogan pages 44-45.jpgSTORIES FROM ANCIENT CANAAN Michael David Coogan Pages 46-47.jpgTo say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostWhat would that evidence look like? Can you cite a specific hypothetical example of a fact that, if confirmed, would prove the some of the Psalms were of purely Jewish origin?Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by jordanriver View PostThis reminds me of the charges that Jesus is just a copy of Mithra, based on cherry picking similarities and ignoring the differences, (Mithra born of a rock, and Mithra's "primeval struggle with Ahura Mazda's first creation, a wild bull, which he subdued and confined to a cave..." and possesses 10,000 eyes and ears and rides in a chariot drawn by white horses" (according to the Avesta) (from p 167 ENCYCLOPEDIA OF GODS isbn 0816029091)
so I am gonna grab a couple books off the shelf, and I sure don't feel like typing all the text that doesn't match the Bible (its easier to type the similarities, cherry picking is always easier)
so I just gonna post 4 pages from two different books and everybody can look for similarities to Psalms or Proverbs or the rest of the Bible
URARIT AND MINOAN CRETE Cyrus H. Gordon 1966 W.W.Norton & Company, Inc (pages 44/45 and 46/47)
STORIES FROM ANCIENT CANAAN Michael David Coogan (pages 44/45 and 46/47)
[ATTACH=CONFIG]3023[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]3024[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]3025[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]3026[/ATTACH]Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-07-2014, 07:43 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostYep. shunya is overstating his case when he says silly things like "the Book of Psalms is a Canaanite text". That's just not the case. Passages in the book of Psalms show possible indications of Canaanite origin and/or influence, but the whole of the book is not a Canaanite text.
And its telling that he hasn't actually read books on the subject by scholars like Mark Smith, John Day, Nicholas Wyatt or Richard Hess since all he's able to offer are citations from websites he's clearly Googled with words like "Canaanite" and "Bible".
I imagine shunya read some posts by showmeproof at some point, and got the facts turned around in his head. Wish showmeproof was around to help correct him.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
First your pictures are not really legible on the post. .To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe sources are good and you are ignoring them. The proof is in the evidence. The only known sources of the Book of Psalms. So far you have not provided any evidence for alternatives
Your first source is not exactly good - no qualifications in the field, (Bachelor's degree in Ceramics) and cites dated scholarship.......>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThat depends on what you call assimilate, but a considerable amount of the Pentateuch and the Psalms evolved, adopted and edited from Phoenician, Canaanite Ugarite and pre-Babylonian literature. This shows an evolving editing and adding to ancient literature instead of being authored by Hebrews alone.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
Comment
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Showmeproof was referenced as not supporting my view. The following directly quotes showmeproof as to who he believes the Hebrews were originally. Note highlighted.
Originally posted by showmeproofPolytheism in Israelite history had a long run until under Hezekiah and then later Josiah destroyed the temples, idols and altars of other gods. Josiah's reign is one of monolarity pushing towards monotheism which doesn't fully take root until after the exile.
This shouldn't sound too surprising as a cursory glance at the old testament frequently has the Israelites worshiping other deities. It is argued that there are many factors that led to the progression from polytheism to monotheism and they include both domestic and foreign politics. Consider first the foreign politics; Israel was a small nation which had really large neighbors: Egypt, Babylonia, Assyria, Phoenicia. Israel went through many periods in which it attempted to court treaties with Egypt, Babylon and Assyria which amounted towards vassalage. Israel didn't have a bargaining chip and had to pay high tribute to which ever country dominated during a certain time. This created a domestic xenophobic environment in which Israelites were almost always in zero sum relationships and they realized it and resented it. As a result much contempt stirs towards the aggressor of the day in the writing of the major and minor prophets including the great disparity between the Israelite elite and poor. One exception might be Solomon's reign which prospered under a strong international policy including the marrying of foreign wives whom are derided by the bible as having turned Solomon's heart by influencing him to acknowledge or at the very least tolerate their home countries gods.
Furthermore, Archaeology is revealing that the Israelites were merely nomadic Canaanites that lived in the hill country...not a vast exodus of slaves from Egypt that forcibly took Canaan. These nomadic tribes may have included assimilated surviving members of the Shasu whom are mentioned on the Merneptah Stele as being from Yhw (a place which happens to be the hill country). Part of the assimilation included some traditions of the Shasu being transmitted into the nomadic Canaanites and vise versa...thus the exodus.
So back to the Canaanite pantheon. This included El the creator god and father of all gods, Baal, Mot, Dagon, Ashtar, Astarte, Lotan, Melqart, Resheph, and others. These of course make appearances in the bible, but are found in Ugaritic Texts preserved in clay. Yahweh is included as well, as a son of El. Yahweh has many encounters with these characters in the bible and is said to rise above them often paralleling feats accomplished by Baal.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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