Canaanite Psalms

[shunyadragon]

"Few"? Why not assume that there is not enough evidence to rule out any hypothesis such as, a large group of Hebrews invaded Canaan from Egypt in the Bronze Age?

No evidence for such an 'large' invasion. There is a possibility of a small migration.

[Adrift]

so shunya is making the case that the Hebrews were simply other Canaanites (and not invaders from Egypt and not an ethnic group that was non-Canaanite) because they used a style of writing similar to the land of Canaan?

Does that mean there really are no foreigners in the USA (except the Brits) who learned English and adapted the customs we have here? IOW, all the Italian-Americans, all the German-Americans, all the Eastern European Americans and Asian Americans were obviously English speaking Americans all along?

shunya is pretty much wrong about everything else, but his citation of showmeproof is (as far as I can tell) accurately describing a prominent theory in ancient Israel studies: That the Israelites primarily originated in Canaan (perhaps as members of the lower class), and that, if the Exodus did happen, it was on a much smaller scale than the Old Testament seems to indicate (at least according to some interpretations of the OT). One theory about the Exodus that has mixed support is that a small band of slaves escaped Egypt, and as they were traveling north encountered the Shasu people who worshiped a god called "Yhw". They accepted this god as their own, and continued northwards where they and their new god Yhw (now named YHWH) were accepted by the ex-Canaanites.

Even granting that Canaanite origin theory is accurate, you're not going to find a scholar who makes the claim that the Psalms are a Canaanite text. By the time the Psalms were penned, Israel had considered itself a culturally, historically, and ideologically distinct people.

[Bill the Cat]

The archeological evidence supports an evolving Canaanite polytheism to monotheism between ~900 to ~500 BCE or longer as described by Bill Dever in his archeological research.

Dever is mainly talking about ordinary Jewish people and their religious practices, not the official religion of Israel. His book title, "The Lives of Ordinary People in Ancient Israel: Where Archaeology and the Bible intersect", is telling of his area of discovery. His conclusions confirm the Biblical record quite nicely with various passages that display pagan god worship by the everyday Jews. I do not at all agree that this confirms the official religion of Israel was polytheistic or even monolatrous, considering the admonitions of the Prophets to these practices.

[Boxing Pythagoras]

"Espoused"? Maybe, "expounded."

Don't feel bad, if it came to that. Oft I need sense expounded into my head. Oh--I mean pounded.

D'oh. Sometimes my brains play tricks on me. Good catch!

I cited references that support that the Book of Psalms is written in poetic verse and linguistic style of Canaanite Ugrarite.

No, you cited references which show that some of the Psalms likely had Canaanite sources and likely contain Ugarite remnants. None of the references you cited made the claim that all of the Psalms show such origin, or that there existed a Canaanite psalter which was later edited and redacted by Hebrews. It is absolutely fallacious to attempt to turn "there is Canaanite influence on some of the Psalms" into "the whole Book of Psalms is a Canaanite text."

[shunyadragon]

D'oh. Sometimes my brains play tricks on me. Good catch!

No, you cited references which show that some of the Psalms likely had Canaanite sources and likely contain Ugarite remnants. None of the references you cited made the claim that all of the Psalms show such origin, or that there existed a Canaanite psalter which was later edited and redacted by Hebrews. It is absolutely fallacious to attempt to turn "there is Canaanite influence on some of the Psalms" into "the whole Book of Psalms is a Canaanite text."

Reread the sources. The sources document that the poetic and linguistic style of the Book of Psalms applies to whole book. I acknowledged the editing and additions by Hebrews probably as late as ~300 BCE. I also demonstrated that the Hebrews were Canaanites genetically and culturally, and had strong polytheistic up until as late as ~600BCE. There is no source of evidence of authorship during the Reign of King David and Solomon.

Please if you believe the Book of Psalms is not Canaanite in origin, please provide sources and avoid mindless name calling.

[shunyadragon]

Dever is mainly talking about ordinary Jewish people and their religious practices, not the official religion of Israel. His book title, "The Lives of Ordinary People in Ancient Israel: Where Archaeology and the Bible intersect", is telling of his area of discovery. His conclusions confirm the Biblical record quite nicely with various passages that display pagan god worship by the everyday Jews. I do not at all agree that this confirms the official religion of Israel was polytheistic or even monolatrous, considering the admonitions of the Prophets to these practices.

There is no evidence for an 'official religion' for the Hebrews until quit late when we have scripture, like after ~500 to 300 BCE or later. Dever describe the archeological evidence for the period prior to this, and the evidence indicates that the Hebrews worshiped Canaanite polytheism until quit late in their history.

Prior to 600 BCE we have no Hebrew scripture, only scrapes of writings in a primitive Ugarite/Phoenician/Hebrew writing. Before 800 BCE the only evidence is Canaanite/Phoenician/pre-Babylonian.

[Bill the Cat]

There is no evidence for an 'official religion' for the Hebrews until quit late when we have scripture, like after ~500 to 300 BCE or later. Dever describe the archeological evidence for the period prior to this, and the evidence indicates that the Hebrews worshiped Canaanite polytheism until quit late in their history.

The diversity of the gods of different polytheistic regions by ordinary Hebrew people is a pretty good indicator that the Hebrews did not worship Canaanite deities as an officially sanctioned national religion. Dever never claims that.

And, yes, there is evidence of Jewish monotheism before 500 BC. Even liberal theories like "Deutero-Isaiah", dated to near 600 BC, claim an officially sanctioned religion of monotheism consistent with the descriptions provided in Chronicles and Kings. Were this a new belief, it would have never been accepted by those who knew it wasn't how things had been done before the exile. Same with Josiah's reforms.

Most of this seems to rest on your insistence that the Hebrew people were not unified as a nation until the Babylonian Exile, which is simply false.

[Boxing Pythagoras]

Reread the sources. The sources document that the poetic and linguistic style of the Book of Psalms applies to whole book.

I just re-read all of the citations you provided in this thread. Not a single one of them states that the whole book of Psalms is directly derived from Canaanite literature. The first citation, in the OP, makes this claim specifically for Psalm 29 (and I happen to agree, there) but nothing in any of your citations extends this to the whole book of Psalms.

Once again, the book of Psalms is no more a Canaanite book than The Magnificent Seven is a Japanese movie.

I acknowledged the editing and additions by Hebrews probably as late as ~300 BCE. I also demonstrated that the Hebrews were Canaanites genetically and culturally, and had strong polytheistic up until as late as ~600BCE. There is no source of evidence of authorship during the Reign of King David and Solomon.

You did not demonstrate that the Hebrews were Canaanites genetically and culturally-- you asserted it. Now, I tend to agree that the Hebrews originated within Canaanite culture, and I even agree that there existed a strong polytheism amongst the Hebrews. However, this is not at all the same as saying that the Hebrews were completely indistinct from Canaanites until 600 BCE, nor does it address the numerous post-Exilic Psalms which originate from a time during which we both agree that the Hebrews were certainly distinct from the Canaanites.

Please if you believe the Book of Psalms is not Canaanite in origin, please provide sources and avoid mindless name calling.

I have not engaged in any mindless name calling, nor do I have any intention of doing so.

As for sources on the origin of the Psalms as distinct from Canaanite literature, I'll point to the work of a scholar who was mentioned by Adrift, earlier in the thread, named John Day. Chapter 11 of his book In Search of Pre-Exilic Israel deals with the evidence for pre-Exilic, Exilic, and post-Exilic dating for different Psalms. He lists several as being clearly post-Exilic, for example Psalms 106, 107, 147. He gives a fair presentation of both majority and minority views on dating a host of individual Psalms. Day presents a very good survey of the scholarship on the construction of the Psalms, and it most certainly does not support your claim that the whole book is a monolithically Canaanite text.

[shunyadragon]

The diversity of the gods of different polytheistic regions by ordinary Hebrew people is a pretty good indicator that the Hebrews did not worship Canaanite deities as an officially sanctioned national religion. Dever never claims that.

Dever does not describe any officially sanctioned religion of any sort, nor do I.

And, yes, there is evidence of Jewish monotheism before 500 BC. Even liberal theories like "Deutero-Isaiah", dated to near 600 BC, claim an officially sanctioned religion of monotheism consistent with the descriptions provided in Chronicles and Kings. Were this a new belief, it would have never been accepted by those who knew it wasn't how things had been done before the exile. Same with Josiah's reforms.

Most of this seems to rest on your insistence that the Hebrew people were not unified as a nation until the Babylonian Exile, which is simply false.

Liberal theories of any theories for that matter does not represent evidence. An underlying agenda in theories whether liberal or conservative is to justify Christianity. Please try again if you have any actual evidence. Yes, the evolution of Monotheism from polytheism likely began in this period with the claim of the supremacy of YHWY over the other Gods.

[seer]

Liberal theories of any theories for that matter does not represent evidence. An underlying agenda in theories whether liberal or conservative is to justify Christianity. Please try again if you have any actual evidence. Yes, the evolution of Monotheism from polytheism likely began in this period with the claim of the supremacy of YHWY over the other Gods.

No shuny, you said The only archeological and internal text evidence we have available is that the Book of Psalms is a Canaanite text

You have not prove that and you know it. Try being honest for once.

[Bill the Cat]

Dever does not describe any officially sanctioned religion of any sort, nor do I.

I already said Dever didn't describe a national religion. You assume that there was none with absolutely no warrant. Just an a priori belief that the scriptures didn't exist before the Exile, and that when introduced, they were somehow able to fool the populace into believing they existed and were in use in Israel before.

Liberal theories of any theories for that matter does not represent evidence. An underlying agenda in theories whether liberal or conservative is to justify Christianity.

Rubbish. Christianity rises and falls on the resurrection of Jesus Christ, not the assimilation of the names of deities from surrounding cultures.

Please try again if you have any actual evidence.

I've provided evidence in my posts that you've ignored. For instance, in post #58, I quoted you as saying "There is no evidence that the Hebrews were a distinctive culture prior to ~500 to 600 BCE." to which I listed "The Mesha stele, the Kurkh Monoliths, the Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III, Tel Dan Stele, the Nimrud Slab, the Nimrud Tablet K.3751, Sargon II's Prism A, the Siloam inscription, the Lachish relief, and the Azekah Inscription all pre-date your time frame here and show the Kingdom of Israel existing as an organized and distinct group centuries before."

Yes, the evolution of Monotheism from polytheism likely began in this period with the claim of the supremacy of YHWY over the other Gods.

Your reasons are circular. You start with the assumption that the Biblical record was written after the supposed "evolution" and then interpret the evidence as supporting a change from polytheism to monolatry to monotheism.

[jordanriver]

definitely not invaders from Egypt, no not a non-Canaanite ethnic minority, not genetically unique from Canaanites. The distinctive Hebrew writing style and alphabet did not exist before 900 - 600 BCE. What have been found is a few examples of mixed Ugarite/Phoenician with a few letters that carried over to the Hebrew language. Hebrew basically evolved from Ugarite/Phoenician/Babylonian language.



OFF TOPIC!

off topic?

but I was beginning to think the topic was logical fallacies (false premise, based on the argument that you think because they adapted the Canaanite style of writing, they therefore must be Canaanites, proven false by the example of non-English speaking foreigners migrating to the USA who's children quickly adapt 'the American customs')

[jordanriver]

The archeological evidence supports an evolving Canaanite polytheism to monotheism between ~900 to ~500 BCE or longer as described by Bill Dever in his archeological research.

Source: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/dever-israel-au.html

DAVID LEVIN: Dever says there's strong evidence that monotheism, the belief in a single god, took a long time to be fully accepted by many ancient Israelites.

BILL DEVER: We should have guessed already that polytheism was the norm and not monotheism from the biblical denunciations of it, which means it was real and a threat as far as those who wrote the Bible were concerned. So according to them, everyone from Moses' time on was or should have been a monotheist. There was only one god in ancient Israel. But in fact there were many gods and goddesses as far as most people were concerned. So, today, archaeology has illuminated what we could call popular religion or folk religion in an astonishing manner.

DAVID LEVIN: One of the most astonishing things that Dever has discovered is that at least some Israelites, in addition to worshipping their god Yahweh, also worshiped a Canaanite female goddess called Asherah. Dever first found evidence of this in 1968, while excavating gravesites in the hills of modern-day Israel.

BILL DEVER: I discovered a Hebrew inscription of the eighth century BCE. And it gives the name of the deceased, and says, "blessed may X be by Yahweh," that's good biblical Hebrew. But it says, "by Yahweh and his Asherah." And Asherah is the name of the old Canaanite mother goddess, the consort of the El, the principal deity of the Canaanite pantheon.

DAVID LEVIN: So why would a Hebrew inscription mention Yahweh with another diety?

BILL DEVER: Well, in popular religion, they were a pair. I think Asherah was widely venerated in ancient Israel. If you look at Second Kings 23, which describes the reforms of King Josiah in the late seventh century, he talks about purging the temple of all the cult paraphernalia of Asherah. So the popular cult so-called folk religion even penetrated the temple in Jerusalem. This is the extent to which the old Canaanite cults prevailed despite the ideal in the Hebrew Bible of monotheism. That's the ideal. The reality was very different.

DAVID LEVIN: Dever says that within the last hundred years, archeologists have uncovered thousands of small clay figurines from sites all over Israel. He thinks they're connected to Asherah.

BILL DEVER: They show a nude female, the sexual organs are not represented but the breasts are. They date all the way from the tenth century to the early sixth century. They are found in the tombs, they are found in household context, they're found in dumps, they're found everywhere. So what are they? They've long been connected with one goddess or another, but many scholars still are hesitant to come to a conclusion. I don't think they're idols, as such, but I do think they're representations, symbols of the great goddess Asherah.

DAVID LEVIN: According to Dever, the Asherah figurines may have been popular because of their use in fertility rites.

BILL DEVER: They were no doubt used by both men and women to pray for for conceiving a child and bearing the child safely and nursing it. But what's interesting to me is the Israelite and Judean ones are rather more modest than the Canaanite ones, which are right in your face. There is no doubt about the blatant sexuality of the of the nude female in the Canaanite figurines. But the Israelite and Judean ones mostly show a nursing female, a nursing mother. Patroness of mothers, I think.

© Copyright Original Source

The Book of Psalms reflects this transition in the editing and additions to the text.

your Bill (William) Dever citations just confirm Bible Yahweh's anger over His people's devotion to pagan idols.

Dever tries to make the case that Israelites are not from Egypt because Kadesh-barnea where the Israelites sojourned 38 years, was located at el-Qudeirat (like his book WHO WERE THE EARLY ISRAELITES AND WHERE DID THEY COME FROM p.19). And no evidence of 2.5-3 million Israelites. BUT, how could It be at Tell el-Qudeirat which is located within the Biblical Promised Land .

Why would they be waiting 38 years before crossing to where they already were. Better choice, Wadi Musa, near Petra (Valley of Moses according to the locals)

[jordanriver]

OTOH, the Hebrews weren't originally Egyptians either, Biblically

[Truthseeker]

Shuny, to be consistent, you would have to reject the Exodus story. It did say that the Hebrews were slaves for 430 years, but they would be Egyptian or Hebraic, not Canaanite, when they fled Goshen. Then they wandered in the wilderness for about 40 more years, until the time came for them to conquer Canaan.

It's somewhat unreasonable to think that archaeological evidence of the Hebrews' stay in Egypt should be plentiful, because age and the environment of the lower Nile region would have destroyed most, nearly all, of the evidence. As for evidence of their wilderness wandering, surely you can accept that there should be rather a lack of evidence for that.

It's somewhat reasonable, if the Exodus story is true, to think that the Mereneptah Stele
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mereneptah_Stele
is evidence that the Hebrews were already established in Canaan before 1210 B.C. If that is true, your dates 600 to 800 B.C. are rather late dates.