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Canaanite Psalms

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  • #61
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Who recently said this: The evidence I’d present for that is the large contingent of literalist Christians and unsophisticated skeptics who constantly troll each other with meaningless noise, essentially resembling simians flinging feces at each other.
    That was a Fawlty Towers quote. My wife and I say it to each other when we act put upon with self-indulgent exasperation. It had nothing to do with religion, and you can watch the episode for yourself to confirm that.

    It'd be a stretch to call that a slinging of feces.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
      I'm not sure what you thought you were arguing here. I noted a place where the Hebrews were almost certainly influenced by Egyptian culture, and your reply was "Actually, there is... evidence of Egyptian influence." I know that there is evidence of Egyptian influence. I explicitly noted some of the evidence of Egyptian influence. That doesn't make Proverbs an Egyptian book, just as Canaanite influence does not make Psalms a Canaanite book, and Japanese influence does not make The Magnificent Seven a Japanese film.
      Never made any claim that the Book of Psalms was an Egyptian Book. Where are you getting this foolishness. Sarcasm noted.

      Even if I were to grant you this point, the fact of the matter is that a significant portion of the book of Psalms was likely composed after 600 BCE, so it remains completely irrelevant to claims that the Psalms were monolithically Canaanite in origin.
      There is no evidence of any compiled Book of Psalms even after ~600 BCE, until latter scrolls were discovered. Nothing in between. The written poetic and linguistic style of the whole book is Canaanite.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        Never made any claim that the Book of Psalms was an Egyptian Book. Where are you getting this foolishness. Sarcasm noted.
        No, you said the Book of Psalms is a Canaanite book, citing Canaanite influence on some of the passages as your evidence. I noted that Proverbs similarly has Egyptian influence on some of the passages, but it would be inaccurate to refer to Proverbs as "an Egyptian book," as an analogy to your argument regarding the Psalms. You replied that "actually, there is... evidence of Egyptian influence," as if I had said quite the opposite of what I had actually said.

        So, once again reiterating my actual point, the Psalms are no more "a Canaanite book" than The Magnificent Seven is a Japanese movie.

        There is no evidence of any compiled Book of Psalms even after ~600 BCE, until latter scrolls were discovered. Nothing in between.
        Yes, until our earliest extant texts, there are no extant texts. That seems a fairly obvious tautology. Our earliest extant text of Archimedes' Method of Mechanical Theorems dates to the 10th Century CE, but that doesn't give us license to claim that it's actually an Eudoxian book because Archimedes espoused upon principles developed by Eudoxus.

        The written poetic and linguistic style of the whole book is Canaanite.
        Scholarship on the Psalms does not support this claim.
        "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
        --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          The written poetic and linguistic style of the whole book is Canaanite.
          You really have embarrassed yourself this time shuny...
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            You really have embarrassed yourself this time shuny...
            Name calling gets you nowhere, read the references.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
              No, you said the Book of Psalms is a Canaanite book, citing Canaanite influence on some of the passages as your evidence.
              That is not all the evidence I cited. Please read the references and my posts

              .
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                Name calling gets you nowhere, read the references.
                Really? Did I miss the Old Testament scholars your quoted?
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post

                  Scholarship on the Psalms does not support this claim.
                  I cited references that support that the Book of Psalms is written in poetic verse and linguistic style of Canaanite Ugrarite. Can you cite anything on the contrary?

                  Christian claims usually center around a Hebrew author(s) during the reigns of King David and Solomon and edited after the exile, but there is no evidence for this scenario.
                  Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-08-2014, 03:32 PM.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Really? Did I miss the Old Testament scholars your quoted?
                    I cited scholarly sources. I may cite more. Read my reference or post your own concerning what is the linguistic and poetic style of the Book of Psalms.

                    I also believe like showmeproof that the Hebrews were actually minor pastoral Canaanites up until about 600 BCE by the archeological evidence.
                    Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-08-2014, 04:58 PM.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                      . . . actually an Eudoxian book because Archimedes espoused upon principles developed by Eudoxus.
                      "Espoused"? Maybe, "expounded."

                      Don't feel bad, if it came to that. Oft I need sense expounded into my head. Oh--I mean pounded.
                      The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                      [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        I cited scholarly sources. I may cite more. Read my reference or post your own concerning what is the linguistic and poetic style of the Book of Psalms.
                        Oh, all right! The style of the Psalms is clearly Canaanite. That in turn points to the Davidic stories as Canaanite myths or obvious adaptions thereof.
                        The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                        [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                          Oh, all right! The style of the Psalms is clearly Canaanite. That in turn points to the Davidic stories as Canaanite myths or obvious adaptions thereof.
                          so shunya is making the case that the Hebrews were simply other Canaanites (and not invaders from Egypt and not an ethnic group that was non-Canaanite) because they used a style of writing similar to the land of Canaan?

                          Does that mean there really are no foreigners in the USA (except the Brits) who learned English and adapted the customs we have here? IOW, all the Italian-Americans, all the German-Americans, all the Eastern European Americans and Asian Americans were obviously English speaking Americans all along?
                          To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by jordanriver View Post
                            so shunya is making the case that the Hebrews were simply other Canaanites (and not invaders from Egypt and not an ethnic group that was non-Canaanite) because they used a style of writing similar to the land of Canaan?
                            definitely not invaders from Egypt, no not a non-Canaanite ethnic minority, not genetically unique from Canaanites. The distinctive Hebrew writing style and alphabet did not exist before 900 - 600 BCE. What have been found is a few examples of mixed Ugarite/Phoenician with a few letters that carried over to the Hebrew language. Hebrew basically evolved from Ugarite/Phoenician/Babylonian language.

                            Does that mean there really are no foreigners in the USA (except the Brits) who learned English and adapted the customs we have here? IOW, all the Italian-Americans, all the German-Americans, all the Eastern European Americans and Asian Americans were obviously English speaking Americans all along?
                            OFF TOPIC!
                            Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-08-2014, 05:17 PM.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              The archeological evidence supports an evolving Canaanite polytheism to monotheism between ~900 to ~500 BCE or longer as described by Bill Dever in his archeological research.

                              Source: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/dever-israel-au.html



                              DAVID LEVIN: Dever says there's strong evidence that monotheism, the belief in a single god, took a long time to be fully accepted by many ancient Israelites.

                              BILL DEVER: We should have guessed already that polytheism was the norm and not monotheism from the biblical denunciations of it, which means it was real and a threat as far as those who wrote the Bible were concerned. So according to them, everyone from Moses' time on was or should have been a monotheist. There was only one god in ancient Israel. But in fact there were many gods and goddesses as far as most people were concerned. So, today, archaeology has illuminated what we could call popular religion or folk religion in an astonishing manner.

                              DAVID LEVIN: One of the most astonishing things that Dever has discovered is that at least some Israelites, in addition to worshipping their god Yahweh, also worshiped a Canaanite female goddess called Asherah. Dever first found evidence of this in 1968, while excavating gravesites in the hills of modern-day Israel.

                              BILL DEVER: I discovered a Hebrew inscription of the eighth century BCE. And it gives the name of the deceased, and says, "blessed may X be by Yahweh," that's good biblical Hebrew. But it says, "by Yahweh and his Asherah." And Asherah is the name of the old Canaanite mother goddess, the consort of the El, the principal deity of the Canaanite pantheon.

                              DAVID LEVIN: So why would a Hebrew inscription mention Yahweh with another diety?

                              BILL DEVER: Well, in popular religion, they were a pair. I think Asherah was widely venerated in ancient Israel. If you look at Second Kings 23, which describes the reforms of King Josiah in the late seventh century, he talks about purging the temple of all the cult paraphernalia of Asherah. So the popular cult so-called folk religion even penetrated the temple in Jerusalem. This is the extent to which the old Canaanite cults prevailed despite the ideal in the Hebrew Bible of monotheism. That's the ideal. The reality was very different.

                              DAVID LEVIN: Dever says that within the last hundred years, archeologists have uncovered thousands of small clay figurines from sites all over Israel. He thinks they're connected to Asherah.

                              BILL DEVER: They show a nude female, the sexual organs are not represented but the breasts are. They date all the way from the tenth century to the early sixth century. They are found in the tombs, they are found in household context, they're found in dumps, they're found everywhere. So what are they? They've long been connected with one goddess or another, but many scholars still are hesitant to come to a conclusion. I don't think they're idols, as such, but I do think they're representations, symbols of the great goddess Asherah.

                              DAVID LEVIN: According to Dever, the Asherah figurines may have been popular because of their use in fertility rites.

                              BILL DEVER: They were no doubt used by both men and women to pray for for conceiving a child and bearing the child safely and nursing it. But what's interesting to me is the Israelite and Judean ones are rather more modest than the Canaanite ones, which are right in your face. There is no doubt about the blatant sexuality of the of the nude female in the Canaanite figurines. But the Israelite and Judean ones mostly show a nursing female, a nursing mother. Patroness of mothers, I think.

                              © Copyright Original Source



                              The Book of Psalms reflects this transition in the editing and additions to the text.
                              Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-08-2014, 05:31 PM.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                definitely not invaders from Egypt, no not a non-Canaanite ethnic minority, not genetically unique from Canaanites. The distinctive Hebrew writing style and alphabet did not exist before 900 - 600 BCE. What have been found is a few examples of mixed Ugarite/Phoenician with a few letters that carried over to the Hebrew language. Hebrew basically evolved from Ugarite/Phoenician/Babylonian language.
                                "Few"? Why not assume that there is not enough evidence to rule out any hypothesis such as, a large group of Hebrews invaded Canaan from Egypt in the Bronze Age?
                                The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                                [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                                Comment

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